Dungeon Master Custom Dungeons

[Jgames]

Ok, I did test DM pc version, and the behaviour is exactly the same as in DMCSB. So sorry about a misleading bug report Meynaf.

When there is no food, stamina increases when sleeping but reaches it's maximum at half it's real maximum value.

When I tested it, it reached it's real maximum value I think because I was having the rabit foot or wearing some magic necklace. As when I removed theses items, I got the proper behaviour.

There is a small difference between the PC version (3.4) and your version: when the character is starving, the food bar is empty in PC, in your version it's still show one tiny bar. Not a bug report, just an observation. Maybe the st version was this way.

Now for some feature request if you don't mind
I am using the new map now all the time, and would like to know if you can add it to the "tab" key too please? I just realised that I can wasd for movement and having the map on tab would be awesome.

Another one:
Can you replace the positioning of the party on the map which is a square, to be an arrow pointing to the look direction of the party in the new mapping system? If it's not hard work please add it.

One last request, but I don't think it's feasible:
Because of the map size, the game doesn't show the whole map on screen. Can it be made kind of zoomed out a bit to allow it to render wholly on a single screen? I doubt it's possible or easy to add but here I ask anyway

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Jgames

That's true, but better bug you about them early while you're still looking at this project. That is before you start on another project and this one slips to oblivion as this is really the best version of DM, and also makes use of Winuae filters making it the prettiest too.

The problem is that i have already started on another project ; in fact, i did work on several other things after that 2.6 release...

Originally Posted by Thorham

It makes that much of a difference?

Yeah. Always shorter and better.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I'm old, too (not really ), and I love me a good bullet hell shoot'm up.

Well, maybe it's not the fact it's arcade by itself, but it kinda feels wrong in DM as it makes monsters abusable. Beginners really shouldn't be able to beat a dragon, for example.

Originally Posted by Thorham

That's pretty damn large.

Sure. But with an automapper, exploring should be enjoyable enough.

Originally Posted by Jgames

Ok, I did test DM pc version, and the behaviour is exactly the same as in DMCSB. So sorry about a misleading bug report Meynaf.

When there is no food, stamina increases when sleeping but reaches it's maximum at half it's real maximum value.

When I tested it, it reached it's real maximum value I think because I was having the rabit foot or wearing some magic necklace. As when I removed theses items, I got the proper behaviour.

Nevertheless I performed some tests in the meanwhile, and seen nothing wrong. But better perform one extra, not so useful test, than missing something, huh ?

Water decreases half as fast as food and it has always been this way.
When in red, you can still rest, but your stamina will be regained very slowly (with trained characters).
Lack of food alone has the exact same effect as lack of water alone.
Beginner characters suffer more than experienced characters with lots of stamina.
You consume more if you are overloaded or use a lot of mana.
The automapper pauses the game so you will use less food and water than before if you spend a lot of time in it.
If you sleep with all your three bars at their maximum, of course nothing will happen - unless both food and water are low.

Originally Posted by Jgames

There is a small difference between the PC version (3.4) and your version: when the character is starving, the food bar is empty in PC, in your version it's still show one tiny bar. Not a bug report, just an observation. Maybe the st version was this way.

Didn't know it's different in the pc version. Anyway it's the intended behaviour. I think the Amiga version behaves this way as well but i don't remember exactly how its code was.

Originally Posted by Jgames

Now for some feature request if you don't mind

I do mind

Originally Posted by Jgames

I am using the new map now all the time, and would like to know if you can add it to the "tab" key too please? I just realised that I can wasd for movement and having the map on tab would be awesome.

So Thorham isn't alone doing "wasd" here, it seems

But there a problem arises : you need two keys.
As other people, using the rotated version, will need their key too.

What's our pal Thorham's opinion on this ?

Originally Posted by Jgames

Another one:
Can you replace the positioning of the party on the map which is a square, to be an arrow pointing to the look direction of the party in the new mapping system? If it's not hard work please add it.

Seems that this fixed-dir automap has opened a nice can of worms...

An arrow would kinda "hide" what's on the cell, as we have very few pixels here to draw things. I'd prefer not do that.

Originally Posted by Jgames

One last request, but I don't think it's feasible:
Because of the map size, the game doesn't show the whole map on screen. Can it be made kind of zoomed out a bit to allow it to render wholly on a single screen? I doubt it's possible or easy to add but here I ask anyway

Hey, why do you think i prefer the rotated version ?

There you can rotate and see more of the map.
In addition i'd prefer to keep it the way it is, as it somehow "hides" the real level dimensions, something a full map wouldn't do.
Besides, using even less pixels would make it totally unreadable.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Well, maybe it's not the fact it's arcade by itself, but it kinda feels wrong in DM as it makes monsters abusable. Beginners really shouldn't be able to beat a dragon, for example.

There are ways to fix this for real time games.

For example: Real time MMORPGs usually have mechanics that make it impossible for a group of players to defeat raid bosses if the group is under leveled. The players' characters will take too much damage, healers can't keep up with the amount of damage the tanks take, tanks can't mitigate enough damage with their abilities, the group can't deal enough damage so that the fight just last too long and the characters wear out, the group can't handle the boss' abilities properly.

Then there's the non-boss units in the raid area which are usually almost equally impossible for under leveled characters.

Works well enough for games such as World of Warcraft and might work well for Dungeon Master style games. On the other hand, part of Dungeon Master's charm is that the game relies so much on the player's skill, and so little on the characters' levels. Not that WOW doesn't require skill, but it's completely and utterly different from what's required in Dungeon Master.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Sure. But with an automapper, exploring should be enjoyable enough.

Can't wait to see what you're going to make.

Originally Posted by meynaf

What's our pal Thorham's opinion on this?

Command line option.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Besides, using even less pixels would make it totally unreadable.

You could do it in hires lace.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

There are ways to fix this for real time games.

For DM it would require a full rewrite of the game rules i'm afraid...

Originally Posted by Thorham

On the other hand, part of Dungeon Master's charm is that the game relies so much on the player's skill, and so little on the characters' levels.

That's something to consider indeed.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Can't wait to see what you're going to make.

If you can't wait I can mail you with something playable (using place holder graphics, of course).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Command line option.

Which would be what ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

You could do it in hires lace.

Errh, sorry, i think i'll pass on this one. Switching from the normal 320x200 to interlace mode doesn't please me at all...

[Jgames]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Command line option.

I don't mind a command line option.
Even better is to have both mappings supported by default (one on tab and the other on the key above it "`". That would keep it in line with the the "*" and "-" map keys for the numpad way.)

Originally Posted by meynaf

Seems that this fixed-dir automap has opened a nice can of worms...

An arrow would kinda "hide" what's on the cell, as we have very few pixels here to draw things. I'd prefer not do that.

Not an arrow then, lets keep it as the square it is now with an edge with a different color to indicate the look direction?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

For DM it would require a full rewrite of the game rules i'm afraid...

That's something to consider indeed.

I'd leave Dungeon Master just as it is anyway. Maybe re-balance a few things, such as stat boosting potions. These are too strong. When you boost wisdom to 170, a character can support two additional full stat boosts on just the mana regeneration if they have enough mana (~500, probably closer to 400).

Originally Posted by meynaf

If you can't wait I can mail you with something playable (using place holder graphics, of course).

How playable is playable?

Originally Posted by meynaf

Which would be what ?

Perhaps a simple switch? You could use the switch to toggle the map mode and have two keys to activate the map, just like you have two sets of movement keys.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Errh, sorry, i think i'll pass on this one. Switching from the normal 320x200 to interlace mode doesn't please me at all...

Why? Can't you just allocate more chipmem at the start of the program, and rethink the display? Shouldn't be too hard.

Originally Posted by Jgames

Not an arrow then, lets keep it as the square it is now with an edge with a different color to indicate the look direction?

Why not do it the way it is now? When you have the compass, the map says which way you're facing.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Jgames

I don't mind a command line option.
Even better is to have both mappings supported by default (one on tab and the other on the key above it "`". That would keep it in line with the the "*" and "-" map keys for the numpad way.)

That's many keys for just a simple automapper

Originally Posted by Jgames

Not an arrow then, lets keep it as the square it is now with an edge with a different color to indicate the look direction?

Wouldn't be very readable, to say the least.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I'd leave Dungeon Master just as it is anyway. Maybe re-balance a few things, such as stat boosting potions. These are too strong. When you boost wisdom to 170, a character can support two additional full stat boosts on just the mana regeneration if they have enough mana (~500, probably closer to 400).

What do you suggest for reducing the power of stats boosting potions ? Maybe reducing the maximum of 170 ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

How playable is playable?

Well, we could start by a simple map without any unit, and then add things one by one. Then you will tell me when it reaches the "playable" state

Originally Posted by Thorham

Perhaps a simple switch? You could use the switch to toggle the map mode and have two keys to activate the map, just like you have two sets of movement keys.

I'm now wondering if it wouldn't be simpler to just replace the "-" key by tab. What do you think about it ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Why? Can't you just allocate more chipmem at the start of the program, and rethink the display? Shouldn't be too hard.

It's OpenScreenTagList() that allocates the chipmem, not me.
I don't think changing the screen mode of an intuition screen "on the fly" is something straightforward, provided it's just possible.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Why not do it the way it is now? When you have the compass, the map says which way you're facing.

That would mean showing a map with letters N,E,S,W linked to the party facing and not to the map itself. I find that... misleading.

[Jgames]

Originally Posted by meynaf

That's many keys for just a simple automapper

As long as there is no key shortage why not? if not then as you said, replacing the "-" with the tab key would be perfect

Wouldn't be very readable, to say the least.

It will be very very helpful, you can know where your party is looking by looking at the different colored edge, a yellow/brown color for it would be nice.
It's not important to be readable or even pretty, what it important is for it to convey a quick information, and that would do.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

What do you suggest for reducing the power of stats boosting potions ? Maybe reducing the maximum of 170 ?

It has to be made so that at 170 wisdom the mana regeneration speed isn't to high. Perhaps diminishing returns for boosted wisdom can work. Some kind of formula based on the amount of wisdom boost and the amount of mana so that the boost if effectively lower than what it says in the stats. Where 170 is more like ~130, or something like that. Shouldn't be hard, but what's a good number for the effective stat boost?

It really does have to be changed in my opinion, because walking around with close to max strength, dexterity and wisdom and be able to maintain it permanently when you're not casting other spells is a bit over the top.

Mana regeneration speed is already high for characters such as Chani. When she has 400+ mana she can maintain strength boosts on the normal regeneration alone.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Well, we could start by a simple map without any unit, and then add things one by one. Then you will tell me when it reaches the "playable" state

Sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'm now wondering if it wouldn't be simpler to just replace the "-" key by tab. What do you think about it ?

Having two sets of keys is nice for right and left handed players. Probably most right handed players prefer WASD, while most left handed players will prefer the keypad if they have the mouse under their left hand.

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's OpenScreenTagList() that allocates the chipmem, not me.

That's not hard to change, but only worth it if you like the idea of this feature.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I don't think changing the screen mode of an intuition screen "on the fly" is something straightforward, provided it's just possible.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but if you don't want to add it, then it doesn't matter

Originally Posted by meynaf

That would mean showing a map with letters N,E,S,W linked to the party facing and not to the map itself. I find that... misleading.

It's not misleading when the map doesn't rotate (I prefer the rotating map, by the way).

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Jgames

As long as there is no key shortage why not? if not then as you said, replacing the "-" with the tab key would be perfect

If replacing "-" with tab is ok for you, then let's go for it. It's easy to do and simple.

Originally Posted by Jgames

It will be very very helpful, you can know where your party is looking by looking at the different colored edge, a yellow/brown color for it would be nice.
It's not important to be readable or even pretty, what it important is for it to convey a quick information, and that would do.

Normally this information is bring to you by the map rotation...

But here you see one reason that makes me reluctant in adding new features that are asked by players. You add one, and then a new pack comes from it...
I'm now wondering if i shouldn't have said "no" to the non-rotating one at first place

Having different colors for all sides would require rewriting that part completely (it's a simple red block that gets filled and it's handled in exactly the same way as the magic footprints), and for a result which i see as not very readable (which means that it does not convey an information that's obvious to the eye)...

Originally Posted by Thorham

It has to be made so that at 170 wisdom the mana regeneration speed isn't to high. Perhaps diminishing returns for boosted wisdom can work. Some kind of formula based on the amount of wisdom boost and the amount of mana so that the boost if effectively lower than what it says in the stats. Where 170 is more like ~130, or something like that. Shouldn't be hard, but what's a good number for the effective stat boost?

Actually the "amount" does not change with wisdom (it depends on your maximum mana). It's "how often" the amount gets added that changes with wisdom. When you sleep you'll see that low wisdom people sometimes gain nothing while others see their mana still raise (very visible when sleeping). It's because, depending on the time, you need some minimum wisdom value to be able to get mana at that point (i hope this explanation is clear enough ?).

Originally Posted by Thorham

It really does have to be changed in my opinion, because walking around with close to max strength, dexterity and wisdom and be able to maintain it permanently when you're not casting other spells is a bit over the top.

Mana regeneration speed is already high for characters such as Chani. When she has 400+ mana she can maintain strength boosts on the normal regeneration alone.

Beware of changes, though. DM is well tested as it is, and changing core rules like this one may make things worse.

Something with less impact would be to change the rules for the potions, not for the mana regeneration. Would solve three exploits : strength, dexterity, and wisdom.
Now the question is : how to limit them without making them useless ? Perhaps by making them more powerful but non cumulable ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Sounds good to me.

Then let's go if you want. If you feel like providing your own place holder graphics, what's needed is terrain graphics for a start, then units. Could be indoor as well as outdoor. Only thing is that it must be "flat", like in civi.

Now should we do this by private mail or here, is another story. I'd like more help, especially from graphicians, but i don't like to be flooded with feature requests, especially for a program where the todo list is already larger than the program itself (in spite the exe is now 40k).

Note : all people who would like to see some turn-based DM in 2D, and have some good view of how it should be made, are welcome to join - as a good dungeon engine is a part of what i intend to do !

Originally Posted by Thorham

Having two sets of keys is nice for right and left handed players. Probably most right handed players prefer WASD, while most left handed players will prefer the keypad if they have the mouse under their left hand.

I'm right handed but i prefer the numpad so there are no clear rules here

Originally Posted by Thorham

That's not hard to change, but only worth it if you like the idea of this feature.

Well, for me it's not worth the trouble.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Perhaps, perhaps not, but if you don't want to add it, then it doesn't matter

That may be useful in my system frame, which, up to now, totally disallows it.

Originally Posted by Thorham

It's not misleading when the map doesn't rotate (I prefer the rotating map, by the way).

For me it is. I also prefer the rotating map. But, hey, it was easy to add the non-rotating one.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Actually the "amount" does not change with wisdom (it depends on your maximum mana). It's "how often" the amount gets added that changes with wisdom.

Amount per second

Originally Posted by meynaf

(i hope this explanation is clear enough ?)

It is, just my wording was off

Originally Posted by meynaf

Something with less impact would be to change the rules for the potions, not for the mana regeneration. Would solve three exploits : strength, dexterity, and wisdom.
Now the question is : how to limit them without making them useless ? Perhaps by making them more powerful but non cumulable ?

Actually, the problem might be something else. It may be that the balance is simply off. The three stat boosts thing I described earlier only works for higher level master characters. In my opinion masters should be very strong. Perhaps making stronger monsters is the solution.

Stronger monsters should have higher damage avoidance, higher hit chance and higher damage reduction to offset the pumped up stats of the master champions. Smarter monsters that can leave and join groups can help, too. Would make the serial kill Death Knight part in your nightmare dungeon harder, for example.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Then let's go if you want. If you feel like providing your own place holder graphics, what's needed is terrain graphics for a start, then units. Could be indoor as well as outdoor. Only thing is that it must be "flat", like in civi.

Sounds cool. I'll see what I can find. There are some nice graphics ripping sites that probably have some suitable graphics.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Now should we do this by private mail or here, is another story. I'd like more help, especially from graphicians, but i don't like to be flooded with feature requests, especially for a program where the todo list is already larger than the program itself (in spite the exe is now 40k).

Make a project thread, and make it absolutely clear that feature requests will be ignored. Worth a shot. And post the current executable

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'm right handed but i prefer the numpad so there are no clear rules here

I actually had to get used to WASD in Dungeon Master after playing with the num pad for so long, but I still prefer it, and so does my arm.

Originally Posted by meynaf

That may be useful in my system frame, which, up to now, totally disallows it.

Things like allocating memory manually for screens is essential for things like double buffering. Don't know how useful changing modes is.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Amount per second

Not per second

It's every 10 seconds or so.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Actually, the problem might be something else. It may be that the balance is simply off. The three stat boosts thing I described earlier only works for higher level master characters. In my opinion masters should be very strong. Perhaps making stronger monsters is the solution.

Higher level master characters, huh ? Then it's kinda "normal" to be powerful indeed !

But reaching master levels is harder now with release 2.6 of the dungeon where you got these levels...

Originally Posted by Thorham

Stronger monsters should have higher damage avoidance, higher hit chance and higher damage reduction to offset the pumped up stats of the master champions. Smarter monsters that can leave and join groups can help, too. Would make the serial kill Death Knight part in your nightmare dungeon harder, for example.

It's easier to make weaker characters than stronger monsters. Just give them less experience. And this is done already.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Sounds cool. I'll see what I can find. There are some nice graphics ripping sites that probably have some suitable graphics.

Good. I'll send you something shortly, and we'll see where we can go from there.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Make a project thread, and make it absolutely clear that feature requests will be ignored. Worth a shot. And post the current executable

Ok, but it's perhaps not ready for that yet
Let's do it private for now, if you don't mind.
When we're advanced enough, a thread can be started.

[Jgames]

Originally Posted by meynaf

If replacing "-" with tab is ok for you, then let's go for it. It's easy to do and simple.

Thanks.

I just finished Dungeon master for the 3rd time now, the first and second time I did was in the early 90's.
I has been great to use the auto-map and also much easier and much better and much more enjoyable this way. Thank you for this great feature mister Meynaf.

Now, I am considering either jumping into CSB, or play a custom dungeon...
I'll probably play a custom dungeon and see how it compares to the original DM, CSB is hard so I'll leave it for later.

[meynaf]

New version with tab key zoned for you. Only the data file needed a change so it's alone in the archive.

Originally Posted by Jgames

I just finished Dungeon master for the 3rd time now, the first and second time I did was in the early 90's.
I has been great to use the auto-map and also much easier and much better and much more enjoyable this way. Thank you for this great feature mister Meynaf.

Which version(s) did you finish previously ?

Originally Posted by Jgames

Now, I am considering either jumping into CSB, or play a custom dungeon...
I'll probably play a custom dungeon and see how it compares to the original DM, CSB is hard so I'll leave it for later.

Beware of custom dungeons, they're often harder than CSB...

[Jgames]

Thanks Meynaf, grabbing it now.

Played the PC version, not sure which version.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will still try the custom dungeons, if I find them too hard I'll begin with CSB.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's easier to make weaker characters than stronger monsters.

It's also less interesting. How hard is it to increase monster stats, and what stats do they have?

Originally Posted by Jgames

I'll probably play a custom dungeon and see how it compares to the original DM, CSB is hard so I'll leave it for later.

If you think CSB is hard then don't try meynaf's nightmare dungeon. In fact, CSB seems perfectly fine if you start with four resurrected CSB characters or a high level DM party. CSB isn't as hard as some people make it out to be.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

It's also less interesting. How hard is it to increase monster stats, and what stats do they have?

It's not difficult to increase the monster stats, but this would imbalance the game.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's not difficult to increase the monster stats, but this would imbalance the game.

What I mean is that you make new monsters with increased stats, just like the armored mummy in your nightmare dungeon. Those new monster will then only appear in the harder parts of the dungeon where you can only get to if your characters have higher levels.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

What I mean is that you make new monsters with increased stats, just like the armored mummy in your nightmare dungeon. Those new monster will then only appear in the harder parts of the dungeon where you can only get to if your characters have higher levels.

New monsters need new graphics, as making "special versions" can be confusing (my armored mummy is an ordinary mummy after all, it just has 30k hp).

And most of what has been done in this area (new dm graphics) doesn't fit well in DM for my taste...

[EctoOne]

Hey, I just found this a few days ago and just have to say thank you. I always loved Dungeon Master and really wanted to replay it. But since I lately prefer to play on a tablet with just a Bluetooth mouse, the original wasn't really good to control. Especially stuff where you have to act fast. Like the speed test on Level 3 of the DM dungeon. Now I can map WASD to on screen buttons in uae4arm. It's great.

But I actually spent some time putting together an installer/launcher based on ButtonMenu_123 (and some other tools) and a simple script which will copy the dungeon.dat into the main folder and backup the save file when the game is ended. It uses just freely available tools/libraries from aminet and after the installation is done, the content of the drawer can be copied on a hdf or rad and will also run fine. I still want to add some options to the installation script and have to figure out another small issue but I could share it when I'm done if anyone is interested.

But I also have a question. Is it possible to get a save editor for this? To edit the stats of the party members. While I do like the challenge, I don't like some of the grind you might need to do. And I would like to boost my party a little bit.