Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by TEG

A DSP in an Amiga wouldn't have been the same as a DSP in a PC. In the Amiga you can combine with the Blitter, the Copper and Paula. A new field of possibilities to explore. I'm sure interesting effects we never saw would have been produced.

Maybe so, but you could say that without stating that PC was boring. The groundbreaking tech stuff seen in its games was anything but.

[Thorham]

@hammer: Again, none of what you wrote makes the Amiga a games system. Plenty of Amiga owners used their Amigas for other purposes. How many people used their SNES for word processing? Zero.

The Amiga being a game system is such a bizarre thing to claim on an Amiga forum where everyone and their cat knows you can do more than just play games on it.

[sokolovic]

Also, isn't the myth about Amiga being a game console at first quickly turned into a computer false ?
IIRC they always wanted to make a computer. The console design was just a late idea to approach more investor to sell their technology.
But the Amiga was designed as a computer till the beginning.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by TCD

The interesting bit about this approach (release an expensive AGA machine much earlier and the 'home' version of that later) is that you have at least some software made by 'evangelists' ready at launch for the cheaper model.

In late 1992 and 1993 quite a few of my friends got PCs. Games on those machines were impressive (at least to me) and it certainly made me want one of those machines too. I read a lot of gaming magazines back then and a lot of games that I wanted to play and saw on PC weren't coming to Amiga (either OCS or AGA).

It would be a bad move since AA3000+ AGA will cause an Osborne effect on non-AGA A500 sales.

Prototype AA3000+'s Lisa was fab'ed by external contractors and Alice was fab'ed by CSG. My A1200 Rev1d4's Alice is fab'ed by CSG.

AA1000+ in 1991 would have an AGA version of A500's chips i.e.
Alice replaces ECS Agnus. Minor modifications since the Alice is still 16-bit.

Lisa replaces ECS Denise.
AGA has a two-cycle Fast Page while OCS/ECS has 68000 influenced four-cycle memory access.

Fat Gary replaces Gary. Gayle in the A1200.

Ramsey for 32-bit memory controller. Part of Budgie in A1200.

Four TTL chips for bridging 32-bit CPU bus and 32-bit Chip RAM. This is replaced by Bridgette in A4000 or included in Budgie in A1200.

Package changes for the two CIA chips.

Package change for Paula.

------------------
A1200's Budgie has a buffered 16-bit link to Gayle's PCMCIA. Gayle also has the 1986-era IDE PIO-0 mode controller.

Budgie integrated Buster functions since A1200's internal edge connector functions like Zorro II with 32-bit data lines. 68020/68030 local bus for the edge connector is the alternative.

[sandruzzo]

@Thorham

That's why DSP on Amiga doesn't make sense, but a better processor does! I think the real original sin was the lack of FastMem since A100/A500! Even a little 64kb would have been great!

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Thorham

@hammer: Again, none of what you wrote makes the Amiga a games system. Plenty of Amiga owners used their Amigas for other purposes. How many people used their SNES for word processing? Zero.

Xbox One officially supports Office 365.

Non-official emulators (e.g. DosBox) can run on "dev mode" retail Xbox One.

https://wccftech.com/xbox-one-archit...stinguishable/

Xbox One Architecture Finally Explained – Runs OS ‘Virtually Indistinguishable’ from Windows 8.

A few months back, many news outlets reported that Xbox One runs 3 Operating Systems. They further went on to claim that the one was a stripped down version of Windows 8, one was the Xbox One OS and the last was a switching layer between the two. Well they were wrong. Xbox One does indeed run three operating systems but the correct ones are: a full fledged windows 8, a stripped down windows 8 and a Host OS (RTOS).

The first tier 'Host OS' and the 'to-the-metal- operating system present in Xbox One dubbed the 'Host OS' is an RTOS (Real Time Operating System) has complete control over the entire Xbox One hardware and resources.

The second tier 'Shared Partition' is occupied by Windows 8. This Operating System is "virtually indistinguishable" from the Windows 8 we know (and love?), code wise. This particular Windows 8 handles all the basic functions of the Xbox One including the shell. Shared Apps are run here. It handles some major features of games such as networking and some audio.

The third tier 'Exclusive Partition' is the Exclusive OS, which in Frank Savage's words is a "Windows 8 that has gone on a massive massive diet, lean and mean Windows 8". It has been hand-tuned to remove any and all bottlenecks as well as bloatware. However this is the part which defines it as a 'partition' and not a virtual machine. All the Direct X draw calls go straight from the Exclusive OS down to the Host OS. It does not go through the full windows 8 ' shared partition'.

Sony provided Linux desktops for PS2, PS3, and PS4. Sony removed the Linux Desktop for PS4 due to DRM hacking.

Originally Posted by Thorham

The Amiga being a game system is such a bizarre thing to claim on an Amiga forum where everyone and their cat knows you can do more than just play games on it.

My argument is about the hardware graphics/audio sub-system. Your argument is about software.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

@Thorham

That's why DSP on Amiga doesn't make sense, but a better processor does! I think the real original sin was the lack of FastMem since A100/A500! Even a little 64kb would have been great!

Both Amiga Blitter and DPS3210 have setup costs.

The only reason for DSP3210 is the $20 cost against Motorola's equivalent 68K solution. For rock-bottom prices, Motorola's 68K is getting killed by cheapo RISC competitors.



Again, https://archive.computerhistory.org/...-05-01-acc.pdf
Page 119 of 981

For 1992
68000-12 = $5.5
68EC020-16 PQFP = $16.06, it's $15 in 1993 Q1.
68EC020-25 PQFP = $19.99, it's $18 in 1993 Q1.

68EC030-25 PQFP = $35.94. On IPC, there is a very tiny difference between 68EC020-25 and 68EC030-25.

68030-25 CQFP = $108.75, it's $92.00 in 1993.

68040-25 = $418.52, it's $337.50 in 1993.
68EC040-25 = $112.50 (useless for the Amiga)

---
Competition

AM386-40 = $102.50, it's $42.75 in 1993.
386DX-25 PQFP = $103.00, it's $55.25 in 1993

486SX-20 PQFP = $157.75, It's $87.75 in 1993.
486DX-33 = $376.75, it's $205.75 in 1993.
486DX2-50 = $502.75, it's $275.00 in 1993.

In 1993, 80486 smashed 68040 into oblivion on "performance vs price".

Discounts are not included.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Also, isn't the myth about Amiga being a game console at first quickly turned into a computer false ?
IIRC they always wanted to make a computer. The console design was just a late idea to approach more investor to sell their technology.
But the Amiga was designed as a computer till the beginning.

Amiga's native graphics/audio system wasn't designed with modularity in mind.

Acutiator was an attempt to make Amiga's graphics/audio system to be modular like a normal desktop computer.

[pixie]

Originally Posted by hammer

Amiga's native graphics/audio system wasn't designed with modularity in mind.

Acutiator was an attempt to make Amiga's graphics/audio system to be modular like a normal desktop computer.

What an impressive document from Hayne for 1992!

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by hammer

My argument is about the hardware graphics/audio sub-system.

Your argument makes no sense. The intended use case and overall design determine what a system is, not design flaws such as rigid custom chip set hardware.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by hammer

My argument is about the hardware graphics/audio sub-system. Your argument is about software.

Your argument is still completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter what some early Amiga blueprint was (if it's even true, as sokolovic mentions), what matters is what it had become. And that was a micro/home computer.

Which is why it also doesn't matter it wasn't fully modular (at least A500/1200). Otherwise C64, CPC and every other micro of the time were also consoles, which really is a boneheaded argument, same as saying your dad's friends played games on A2000. Guess what, my mom's massive railway company used ZX Spectrum's for accounting in the Eighties - that doesn't make this microcomputer a PC. Same like Nokia doesn't become a games console because it has Snake, Dreamcast a computer because you can connect a keyboard, etc, etc...

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by hammer

Xbox One officially supports Office 365.

Non-official emulators (e.g. DosBox) can run on "dev mode" retail Xbox One.

I know nothing about this 'Xbox One" you talk of, but today a workmate gave me an original Xbox with 'Halo 2' game. Seems to work fine, but what a POS! Based on the constant hard drive chattering I'm betting there's an entire PC inside it running Windows. And that Halo game is practically unplayable. He also threw in another game called 'Fable' which was marginally playable but pointless.

I am so glad that I never bought one of these things - man would I have been disappointed by it!

[hammer]

Originally Posted by pixie

What an impressive document from Hayne for 1992!

Acutiator paper in 1992 is too late. R&D on Amiga's subsystem partitioning should been executed in 1987 and completed by 1988.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

I know nothing about this 'Xbox One" you talk of, but today a workmate gave me an original Xbox with 'Halo 2' game. Seems to work fine, but what a POS! Based on the constant hard drive chattering I'm betting there's an entire PC inside it running Windows. And that Halo game is practically unplayable. He also threw in another game called 'Fable' which was marginally playable but pointless.

I am so glad that I never bought one of these things - man would I have been disappointed by it!

My A1200 with PiStorm32-RPi 4B 8 GB(2GB usable for the Amiga)-Emu68 has a 64GB micro-sd card i.e. CaffeineOS 9275's 32 GB partitions and my 32GB partition. It's loaded with other content beyond the CaffeineOS 9275 e.g. Coffin R60's content.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

today a workmate gave me an original Xbox

Noice

[sandruzzo]

is this thread About Playstations and Xbox or what?!?

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Your argument makes no sense. The intended use case and overall design determine what a system is, not design flaws such as rigid custom chip set hardware.

Wrong.

1. For most use cases, the Amiga is used as a games machine that is dominated by "kick the OS" games. When the Amiga gaming scene collapsed, it took out the bulk of the Amiga market with it.

Without legacy Amiga games, mostly OS-friendly applications AmigaPPC NG couldn't restore the Amiga. AmigaPPC NG is missing the major factor for Amiga's professional video market niche i.e. Video Toaster. Video Toaster NLE and MovieShop NLE couldn't run it.

Without legacy Amiga games, mostly OS-friendly applications MorphOS/Pegasos couldn't restore the Amiga. MorphOS/Pegasos is missing the major factor for Amiga's professional video market niche i.e. Video Toaster. Video Toaster NLE and MovieShop NLE couldn't run it.

Without legacy Amiga games, mostly OS-friendly applications Amithlon (Bill McEwen: "AmigaOS X86", Bernd Meyer: "we don't care about games" ) couldn't restore the Amiga. Video Toaster NLE and MovieShop NLE couldn't run it.

Amiga's games scene is a major entry vector for Amiga's non-game applications.

Video Toaster's market niche with A2000/A3000/A4000 sales can't sustain Commodore. MovieShop NLE unit sales can't sustain Commodore.

Your argument is based on a tiny minority of Amiga users.

2. Amiga's non-partitioned custom chipset is from a game console origin.

3. The legacy Amiga games-oriented TheA500mini managed to restore the Amiga in mainstream stores. Nearly executed Jack Tramiel's "for the masses".

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by hammer

It would be a bad move since AA3000+ AGA will cause an Osborne effect on non-AGA A500 sales.

This was not 1983 anymore. By 1991 customers were already used to the fact the computer technology is moving at a rapid pace and that you can get the newest and fastest machines with more features at a higher price.

It you would wait until the price comes down, you would only see a other newer and better product popping up at the high end and therefor wait forever...
In the 90 everybody knew this ...

In addition to that: the Osborn was only killed be the premature announcement of a non existing product - this is fundamentally different from actually releasing a next gen product with better features even if it is high-end-only at first.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

@Thorham

That's why DSP on Amiga doesn't make sense, but a better processor does! I think the real original sin was the lack of FastMem since A100/A500! Even a little 64kb would have been great!

From Dave Haynie:

https://www.devili.iki.fi/mirrors/ha.../docs/acu1.pdf

2.3.3 The Signal Processor
A signal processor is a vital option for Acutiator Multimedia systems. The AT&T
DSP3210 is a low cost, high performance bus mastering signal processing coprocessor ideally
suited to the Amiga hardware/software architecture. This processor has two main functions. As
a mathematics engine, it can process single-precision floating-point up to ten times faster than a
standard MC68040 running optimized 68040 code, or as much as fifty times faster than a 68040
running Amiga IEEE libraries or 68030 floating-point code. The standard AT&T software
modules provide, in the context of a real-time multitasking operating kernel, a great number of
standard functions, including sampling rate conversion, JPEG decoder, and both audio and video
MPEG decoders, with many other modules available optionally
(snip)

There's less need for CD32's MPEG FMV.

CD32's MPEG FMV doesn't create an MPEG decoder middleware for the Amiga.

CD32's MPEG FMV doesn't improve Amiga's general-purpose IEEE math. FMV's CL450 requires 80 ns 512KB (4Mbit) local RAM. FMV does nothing for 3D games. https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...88&fileId=1924
Commodore didn't focus on 3D gaming and wasted time on non-core use cases e.g. FMV module.

Apple Pippin's 45,000 units sale with $599 price failed harder than CD32.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

@hammer: Again, none of what you wrote makes the Amiga a games system. Plenty of Amiga owners used their Amigas for other purposes. How many people used their SNES for word processing? Zero.

The Amiga being a game system is such a bizarre thing to claim on an Amiga forum where everyone and their cat knows you can do more than just play games on it.

It is also a very EAB exclusive point of view. This board is very focused on gaming - not only Amiga but retro gaming in general. Nothing wrong with that:
everything needs its place.
But one has to keep that in mind.
Other Boards and forums are more balanced or target a more application centered crowd.