KarlosTKG now on GitHub - Page 20

Karlos · 25 May 2023, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

yep, the tools need an update.

I will (with any luck) put what I have on github this weekend.

Maybe there will be some interest from others used to amos, you never know.

would be great to port it to c or something but that ain't going to happen over night unfortunately.

I'd settle for blitz basic. Anything but AMOS - at least as long as the source code is some inscrutable tokenised binary.

Samurai_Crow · 25 May 2023, 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

I'd settle for blitz basic. Anything but AMOS - at least as long as the source code is some inscrutable tokenised binary.

E makes smaller binaries than Blitz but the optimization levels are comparable for either. Maybe E-VO would be better than Blitz. It would be nice to see a head to head match up though. Anybody up for a challange? I shouldn't volunteer for things like this but I'm just so curious.

Karlos · 25 May 2023, 08:10

I don't know enough to comment. Part of me thinks a clean room C/C++ implementation would be best, especially one that could be ported to other platforms.

Porting it to any other language will still result in a better understanding of the data layout that's used, which is also crucial as documentation is scarce.

Generally, performance isn't an issue for the editor but there are some aspects where it does matter. For example, when building the level after any layout changes, it has to generate the clips data which is essentially a precalculated set of visibility data. Back on my 040, this used to be pretty damn slow.

grond · 25 May 2023, 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

Just for you...

[ Show youtube player ]

That's a great video, thanks a lot! I have to admit that I didn't fully understand how complex the engine really is before I had seen the level editor (which I totally ignored until now). If they had put all that effort into a PC engine instead, I guess the outcome would have been up there with the famous FPS series. For 1996 that definitely was a competitive engine.

Karlos · 25 May 2023, 11:18

It's interesting. The level editor basically makes you do the work that a BSP would do. In Doom, you edit levels in a pretty intuitive way and the preprocessing builds a BSP tree that eventually carves the level up into convex spaces (i.e. polygons when viewed as a map).

In AB3D2, you build up the level by defining those convex polygons directly, which the game calls zones.

Each zone is defined as a clockwise selection of points that must result in a convex shape. There is a limit (10, I think) of how many points define a zone. Points can be colinear as long as the overall polygon is convex, e.g. think of a long straight corridor broken into sections. Each pair of consecutive points defines a wall.

Each zone has up to 5 vertical levels: lower floor, lower ceiling, upper floor, upper ceiling and water level. This allows a zone to be part of two different, vertically separated regions of the same map, giving the room over room capability (I haven't tried this, but given the way the visibility graph works, it may be possible to cheat other kinds too). Each has it's own texture and scaling (except water which uses a universal texture).

Each wall can use a different vertical slice (8, 16, 32, 64, 128 or 256 wide, offset by any multiple of 8) of any wall texture, which is tiled in one of 3 ways, basic, stretch fit and shrink fit. Upper zone and lower zone wall textures are independent.

Two mechanisms control lighting. Firstly, each point on the map has 4 brightness values. Lower floor, lower ceiling, upper floor and upper ceiling. Walls use these point brightnesses to calculate shading gradients, as do the floor and ceiling textures. The second control is an overall brightness adjustment that can brighten or darken a wall.

After this you get more complex features like control points that are used to create the map for aliens to follow. Control points can be placed in upper or lower zones, have multiple zones associated with them, be physically linked (bidirectional or unidirectional) or just visibly linked (flying aliens can still follow those but walking ones might have to stop and take shots).

And that's before you get into the whole runtime rendering with basic bitmaps, glare, additive and lightsourced options before going full polygon.

grond · 25 May 2023, 12:47

Impressive stuff. I wonder whether the creators of AB3D2 did not only want to create an enjoyable game but actually hoped that their game would provide an incentive to upgrade to Pentium-class Amiga-hardware which I believe many at the time thought was the only way forward (getting rid of the A500+512KB fastmem crowd that held everything back).

Karlos · 25 May 2023, 13:13

I think perhaps it's just the game that Andy Clitheroe wanted to make the first time. The engine is clearly an evolution of the AB3D1 engine. When you look at the AB3D1 rolling demo and first playable demos, they ran in 256 colours with dithering but on a chunky copper screen. This was replaced with a pseudo RGB display for the release version, replacing the dithering which didn't help too much at 2x2 pixel modes. It was an excellent trade off in my opinion.

What AB3D2 lacked was polish. Clearly a decision was made to release it while there was still the chance for some sales. In my opinion, this is why the source was released. What it reveals is the relatively herculean effort of a single developer.

I'd like to think that somewhere out there Andy Clitheroe knows that there's now the chance to do justice to his creation.

grond · 25 May 2023, 15:41

Is there any info on Andy Clitheroe? Interviews and such? AB3D2 may be the most technically advanced piece of code for Amiga.

eXeler0 · 25 May 2023, 16:28

A thread on a different forum that might be of some interest

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=67666&start=60

Check pages 5-6…. User ”Joyclynsachs” is Andy C.

StevenJGore · 25 May 2023, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXeler0

A thread on a different forum that might be of some interest

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=67666&start=60

Check pages 5-6…. User ”Joyclynsachs” is Andy C.

"I was basically allowed to finish it as a kind of goodbye to the Amiga."

A fascinating read. Thanks for the link!

abu_the_monkey · 25 May 2023, 19:13

good read.

it seemed more like, get it working by such and such a date or we don't release it, rather than 'finish it' but that's my take on it.

is anything ever really finished though???

Karlos · 25 May 2023, 19:33

Another (shorter) editor video. Here I'm just reskinning and re-lighting a small area. Rest assured it was tweaked for longer the video was made...

[ Show youtube player ]

Karlos · 25 May 2023, 19:42

He didn't hold any punches with his opinion of TKG

It's interesting that he mentions zone ordering as one of the pain points - means I was probably onto something with the experimental optimisation I was looking at before. I should revisit it.

abu_the_monkey · 26 May 2023, 00:09

Quote:

He didn't hold any punches with his opinion of TKG

maybe just frustrated with what was going on at the time?
deadlines are never nice, pouring a load of time into something you ultimately can't be proud of can make you have a negative view of it.

Karlos · 26 May 2023, 00:28

I'm sure of it. Anyway, back to the retexturing and editing. Well, not really, I'm knackered lol

eXeler0 · 26 May 2023, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

maybe just frustrated with what was going on at the time?
deadlines are never nice, pouring a load of time into something you ultimately can't be proud of can make you have a negative view of it.

The way I interpret this is that Karlos has Andys blessing to improve on whatever doesnt feel right regardig level design and texturing

Karlos · 26 May 2023, 22:45

I've just pushed a bunch of changes to level N. I think I've removed most, if not all the holodeck textures.

I haven't quite figured out what I am doing with the hot metal lift / pitfall trap that I put around the alien terminal, so there's a single switch nearby that activates the lifts, otherwise, falling in there without a jetpack is a one way ticket.

Also the level is a bit light on pickups, which needs addressing.

All pushed to the usual branch for now.

@abu if you are fed up of Amos, there's a horde that need a good kicking.

abu_the_monkey · 26 May 2023, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

@abu if you are fed up of Amos, there's a horde that need a good kicking.

yes please, grabbing it now

Karlos · 26 May 2023, 23:22

I tried to make N feel a bit more like AB3D1 so far. Consequently it doesn't take any prisoners. Do let me know if you find any holodeck bits

Karlos · 26 May 2023, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

maybe just frustrated with what was going on at the time?
deadlines are never nice, pouring a load of time into something you ultimately can't be proud of can make you have a negative view of it.

Ironically, that's what work is like right now.

25 May 2023, 16:28	#389
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,986	KarlosTKG now on GitHub A thread on a different forum that might be of some interest https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=67666&start=60 Check pages 5-6…. User ”Joyclynsachs” is Andy C. Last edited by eXeler0; 25 May 2023 at 18:22.

26 May 2023, 22:45	#397
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	I've just pushed a bunch of changes to level N. I think I've removed most, if not all the holodeck textures. I haven't quite figured out what I am doing with the hot metal lift / pitfall trap that I put around the alien terminal, so there's a single switch nearby that activates the lifts, otherwise, falling in there without a jetpack is a one way ticket. Also the level is a bit light on pickups, which needs addressing. All pushed to the usual branch for now. @abu if you are fed up of Amos, there's a horde that need a good kicking. Last edited by Karlos; 26 May 2023 at 23:02.

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25 May 2023, 08:10	#383
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	I don't know enough to comment. Part of me thinks a clean room C/C++ implementation would be best, especially one that could be ported to other platforms. Porting it to any other language will still result in a better understanding of the data layout that's used, which is also crucial as documentation is scarce. Generally, performance isn't an issue for the editor but there are some aspects where it does matter. For example, when building the level after any layout changes, it has to generate the clips data which is essentially a precalculated set of visibility data. Back on my 040, this used to be pretty damn slow.

25 May 2023, 11:18	#385
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	It's interesting. The level editor basically makes you do the work that a BSP would do. In Doom, you edit levels in a pretty intuitive way and the preprocessing builds a BSP tree that eventually carves the level up into convex spaces (i.e. polygons when viewed as a map). In AB3D2, you build up the level by defining those convex polygons directly, which the game calls zones. Each zone is defined as a clockwise selection of points that must result in a convex shape. There is a limit (10, I think) of how many points define a zone. Points can be colinear as long as the overall polygon is convex, e.g. think of a long straight corridor broken into sections. Each pair of consecutive points defines a wall. Each zone has up to 5 vertical levels: lower floor, lower ceiling, upper floor, upper ceiling and water level. This allows a zone to be part of two different, vertically separated regions of the same map, giving the room over room capability (I haven't tried this, but given the way the visibility graph works, it may be possible to cheat other kinds too). Each has it's own texture and scaling (except water which uses a universal texture). Each wall can use a different vertical slice (8, 16, 32, 64, 128 or 256 wide, offset by any multiple of 8) of any wall texture, which is tiled in one of 3 ways, basic, stretch fit and shrink fit. Upper zone and lower zone wall textures are independent. Two mechanisms control lighting. Firstly, each point on the map has 4 brightness values. Lower floor, lower ceiling, upper floor and upper ceiling. Walls use these point brightnesses to calculate shading gradients, as do the floor and ceiling textures. The second control is an overall brightness adjustment that can brighten or darken a wall. After this you get more complex features like control points that are used to create the map for aliens to follow. Control points can be placed in upper or lower zones, have multiple zones associated with them, be physically linked (bidirectional or unidirectional) or just visibly linked (flying aliens can still follow those but walking ones might have to stop and take shots). And that's before you get into the whole runtime rendering with basic bitmaps, glare, additive and lightsourced options before going full polygon.

25 May 2023, 12:47	#386
grond Registered User Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Germany Posts: 1,926	Impressive stuff. I wonder whether the creators of AB3D2 did not only want to create an enjoyable game but actually hoped that their game would provide an incentive to upgrade to Pentium-class Amiga-hardware which I believe many at the time thought was the only way forward (getting rid of the A500+512KB fastmem crowd that held everything back).

25 May 2023, 13:13	#387
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	I think perhaps it's just the game that Andy Clitheroe wanted to make the first time. The engine is clearly an evolution of the AB3D1 engine. When you look at the AB3D1 rolling demo and first playable demos, they ran in 256 colours with dithering but on a chunky copper screen. This was replaced with a pseudo RGB display for the release version, replacing the dithering which didn't help too much at 2x2 pixel modes. It was an excellent trade off in my opinion. What AB3D2 lacked was polish. Clearly a decision was made to release it while there was still the chance for some sales. In my opinion, this is why the source was released. What it reveals is the relatively herculean effort of a single developer. I'd like to think that somewhere out there Andy Clitheroe knows that there's now the chance to do justice to his creation.

25 May 2023, 15:41	#388
grond Registered User Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Germany Posts: 1,926	Is there any info on Andy Clitheroe? Interviews and such? AB3D2 may be the most technically advanced piece of code for Amiga.

25 May 2023, 19:13	#391
abu_the_monkey Registered User Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Bicester Posts: 2,023	good read. it seemed more like, get it working by such and such a date or we don't release it, rather than 'finish it' but that's my take on it. is anything ever really finished though???

25 May 2023, 19:33	#392
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	Another (shorter) editor video. Here I'm just reskinning and re-lighting a small area. Rest assured it was tweaked for longer the video was made... [ Show youtube player ]

25 May 2023, 19:42	#393
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	He didn't hold any punches with his opinion of TKG It's interesting that he mentions zone ordering as one of the pain points - means I was probably onto something with the experimental optimisation I was looking at before. I should revisit it.

26 May 2023, 00:28	#395
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	I'm sure of it. Anyway, back to the retexturing and editing. Well, not really, I'm knackered lol

26 May 2023, 23:22	#399
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,483	I tried to make N feel a bit more like AB3D1 so far. Consequently it doesn't take any prisoners. Do let me know if you find any holodeck bits

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