The astonishing success of Mario

[Retro1234]

I prefer Tekken to Super Mario.

[Minuous]

Originally Posted by Mixel

Agreed, I have the same nostalgia, and like GS for that, but nobody who had NES and an Amiga at the time would prefer Giana.

I don't see why not; in my opinion GGS has better graphics and sound with better levels, also the controllability of the character is better (eg. more maneouverable in midair).

[rare_j]

Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000

I got fed up with Mario 64 at one point, it was sort of like a Pyramid building project construction scaffolding type layout going round and round. If Mario is so awesome I wouldn't have stopped playing it just like any other game I get fed up with

I also stopped playing it at that point - twice. Once on N64 at the time, and again with the DS remake. Then last year I had another go on the N64 and took the time to get past that part - ended up finishing and enjoying a lot, then playing through the lot again using emulator, widescreen hi res 60fps etc. Just saying you should give it another try some time.

[gimbal]

SMB was fun back in the day (but SMB2 and SMB3 greatly improved on the formula), it provides me enjoyment today just seeing what kind of quirky tricks they used to make the game mechanics work. Like how scrolling is locked allowing to hide secrets off-screen:

[ Show youtube player ]

Worth saying that probably my favorite Mario game of that time is not on the NES, it is Super Mario Land 2 on the Gameboy. The first coin collectathon game.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Mixel

Agreed, I have the same nostalgia, and like GS for that, but nobody who had NES and an Amiga at the time would prefer Giana.

SMB is a significantly more advanced game with more tight controls and mechanics. And WAY more variety even in the first game. It just shows weird tribalism .. I know we’re on an Amiga forum but jeeeeez.

This. The game design in all the mainstream Mario games on the NES is head and shoulders above anything put out on the Amiga. SMB1 nailed the level design, difficulty curve, variety, controls and even the music was excellent, really made the most of such a limited machine (the 2-button controller didn't hurt either). SMB2 is a different beast due to its origins, but no less polished or accomplished. SMB3 then went back to the SMB1 model but expanded it beyond what I thought the NES could do. And that's not even touching on Super Mario World on the SNES, a machine some people consider on a par with the Amiga.

Back then I initially couldn't really understand why people were abandoning their C64s, Speccies and Ataris for the NES. You couldn't even program it, games were expensive, and on the surface were no different to anything the home computers could offer. Then I played SMB on a friend's NES and understood. I still stuck to the home computers route as I preferred to tinker, games more suited to computers like sims and strategy, and couldn't afford NES games, but from then on was always aware of the massive gulf in gameplay between titles like Mario/Sonic/Metroid/Zelda games and anything superficially similar on the C64, Atari 8-bit or Amiga.

So no, there shouldn't be anything astonishing about the success of Mario at all. If it's caught you by surprise it could only be because you haven't really played any of them, or you give your own opinion so much weight that you mistakenly believe it represents the general population.

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

So no, there shouldn't be anything astonishing about the success of Mario at all. If it's caught you by surprise it could only be because you haven't really played any of them, or you give your own opinion so much weight that you mistakenly believe it represents the general population.

There's no surprise "Let's a go!!" obviously speaks to the majority! However, I'm allowed to prefer Turrican to Metroid, The Great Giana Sisters to Mario and Xtreme Racing to Super Mario Kart. I wouldn't go as far as saying Tales from Heaven is a comparative title to Mario 64 but I care so little for 3D platformers I'd say who cares?

Titles like Pandemonium 2.5D platformers made Mario 64 pointless and WipEout destroyed F-Zero. Maro Kart might as well stay in the arcades as Twisted Metal is far more interesting for all out vehicle combat and WipEout or Outrun 2 are better for racing! I'm surprised Nintendo exists as a 1st party game producer, I really am!

In my ideal world SEGA would still be in the console business and Nintendo would be just a footnote in the UK game industry primarily with memories of the GameBoy. The GameBoy and the Wii are really the only Nintendo home consoles of note for the UK market. Other than that Nintendo are the litigious bad guys of video games!

[TCD]

There there, maybe you want to share with the group where Mario touched you?

[BigD]

Originally Posted by TCD

There there, maybe you want to share with the group where Mario touched you?

"Let's-a go!" "Mamma mia!" "Okey-dokey!" "Here we go!"


The guy is just a lazy stereotype! The whole Nintendo thing is so overrated! I get it that NES consoles were an intrinsic part of US childhoods in the 80s but they really were irrelevant and rare here! I thought the SNES looked interesting and like Super Star Wars etc but Mario really is overrated!

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by BigD

However, I'm allowed to prefer Turrican to Metroid, The Great Giana Sisters to Mario and Xtreme Racing to Super Mario Kart.

Of course you are, having opinions that put you in a minority are fine, but being aware that they are minority opinions will generally be a good thing, and learning to appreciate what's good about something without liking it is another useful life skill.

Titles like Pandemonium 2.5D platformers made Mario 64 pointless and WipEout destroyed F-Zero. Maro Kart might as well stay in the arcades as Twisted Metal is far more interesting for all out vehicle combat and WipEout or Outrun 2 are better for racing! I'm surprised Nintendo exists as a 1st party game producer, I really am!

Hmmm... You're not really comparing like with like, and you'd be more aware of that if you'd spent some time playing the ones you don't like. If you really don't like them, that's of course fine. But you can't deny the quality of gameplay or pioneering nature of those games, even if they're not to your tastes.

In my ideal world SEGA would still be in the console business and Nintendo would be just a footnote in the UK game industry primarily with memories of the GameBoy.

Just as well we're not all subject to your ideal world then, eh?

The GameBoy and the Wii are really the only Nintendo home consoles of note for the UK market.

In terms of sales perhaps, but many of Nintendo's best regarded games were released on other consoles.

Other than that Nintendo are the litigious bad guys of video games!

LOL, maybe that's just because they're the only ones with 1st party games and IP worth protecting? Besides, let's not forget Sony have gone to some pretty severe lengths to try to prevent piracy.

[dreamkatcha]

Taking the games out of the equation for a second, I do think it's astonishing that a couple of stumpy, bland, red-neck-panted plumbers managed to capture the attention of kids all over the globe, whilst - Sonic being the prime example - the rest of the gaming industry was bending over backwards to deliver a cool, edgy, aspirational protagonist.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by dreamkatcha

Taking the games out of the equation for a second, I do think it's astonishing that a couple of stumpy, bland, red-neck-panted plumbers managed to capture the attention of kids all over the globe, whilst - Sonic being the prime example - the rest of the gaming industry was bending over backwards to deliver a cool, edgy, aspirational protagonist.

Yeah, it's almost as if the main character/mascot doesn't matter as much as the 90s made you think.

[grond]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Mario established its presence in cartoons and cereals too at that time

Quite a few pr0n movies, too.

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

LOL, maybe that's just because they're the only ones with 1st party games and IP worth protecting? Besides, let's not forget Sony have gone to some pretty severe lengths to try to prevent piracy.

The likes of Taito and Midway have far more interesting games from the 1980s than Nintendo. Seriously, it is only the fact that Mom and Pop liked the price point of the NES in 1980s America that we have to pay lip service to Nintendo period!

Take the Mario Universe; the one bad buy is called Bad-Mario (Wario) and Bowser as far as I know is a large mean turtle/dragon 'Koopa' and Toad is a talking toadstool, Yoshi is a cute dinosaur and then we have two Italian Plumbers! They throw shells at the enemy Koopas, kinda of like throwing human skulls at other humans! Where's the consistency in the Mario universe? I think I prefered Captain N as an idea! I thought the Sonic extended cast was misconceived but at least Dr Robotnik as actually a menacing presence and Knuckles and even Silver Sonic and Tails hold together as characters is that universe! A plumber saves a princess over and over again from an overgrown turtle with teeth and fire breathing like a dragon! Is that what Miyamoto pitched Nintendo's board?

[Keops/Equinox]

Originally Posted by BigD

NES consoles were an intrinsic part of US childhoods in the 80s but they really were irrelevant and rare!

Yeah right, that's probably why the sales numbers for NES, SMS, C64 and Amiga in the UK ended up being more or less the same in the long run (all around 1.5M afair). All irrelevant and rare.


I suppose Miyamoto is also a con artist and he does not deserve all that praise or to have all those games in Metacritic's top 20 of all time:

Zelda: Ocarina Of Time (99%)
Super Mario Galaxy 1 (97%)
Super Mario Galaxy 2 (97%)
Zelda: Twilight Princess (96%)
Zelda: Majora's Mask (95%)

The vast majority of game designers can only dream of achieving 10% of this in their lifetime.


Also, let's compare a game released in 1990 (F-Zero) to a game released 5 years later (Wipeout) running on 3D hardware and that clearly took inspiration from the former. Same goes for Great Giana Sisters and Super Mario.

You can of course dislike Miyamoto's games but it's a fact he always came up with new game mechanics, original game design and new ideas that were often copied or that paved the way, starting with Super Mario Bros.


It's no coincidence Nintendo is still going strong 40 years later. Miyamoto, Gunpei Yokoi and a few other geniuses at Nintendo are no strangers to that.

[BigD]

Great, the rest of the world loves Nintendo but other than Battle Toads, Duck Tails, Super Mario 3 and Duck Hunt the NES DID NOT, I repeat DID NOT impact here in the UK.

We had a home computer industry and our home grown developers morphed onto the PC and PlayStation ecosystems from the Spectrum, BBC, Amiga and ST. You can keep telling me that Nintendo are geniuses but they failed to enter our market within a reasonable time frame of the other world markets and have treated us with contempt ever since! They expect their childish franchises to sell by default and they have shown themselves to be a mean spirited company that smashes any fan service or modding community that may have built some bridges between us and them. As a counterpoint, SEGA employed Christian Whitehead to build Sonic Mania, THE best Sonic game of modern times. If he'd have been a Mario fan Nintendo would have sued him into bankruptcy before ever considering getting him to make a game with Mario Maker (which is needed since Nintendo refuse to bundle one with the package)!

Nintendo are a truly sick company IMHO and yet masquerading as a wholesome one with family values! They will not be getting ANY money from me whether their works are considered masterpieces or not.

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by BigD

The guy is just a lazy stereotype!

Stereotypes were not exactly uncommon though. You call it lazy, I just call it "expected".

[Mixel]

Originally Posted by BigD

Great, the rest of the world loves Nintendo but other than Battle Toads, Duck Tails, Super Mario 3 and Duck Hunt the NES DID NOT, I repeat DID NOT impact here in the UK.

It did impact in the UK. I had friends with NES'.. you could get them in catalogues and stores countywide very easily. I lived in an Amstrad bubble of all things but im not silly enough to think that my childhood was in any way representative of the wider UK.

XTR is not a sufficient mario kart equivelent and Turrican is not even the same subgenre as Metroid. By comparing things that are so little like you're just drawing more attention to the fact that we didn't have anything good like metroid at all. XD Let alone Castlevania3... Or many many other classics. (we had other good stuff too, though)

Our "home grown" devs ended up working for nintendo too.. Starfox, anyone?

Originally Posted by Minuous

I don't see why not; in my opinion GGS has better graphics and sound with better levels, also the controllability of the character is better (eg. more maneouverable in midair).

Ease of control doesn't mecessarily equate to better control. There's more nuance and skill involved in playing Mario because of the run button and the inertia, and the duck sliding, and all sorts of mechanics that just aren't in Giana, which is v basic in comparison.. then you add things like the swimming levels, its weird to think GS has "better" levels when it has a fraction of the variety, even just from enemy behaviours.. I also prefer the amigaish look and sound but it doesnt make the game itself better.

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Mixel

It did impact in the UK. I had friends with NES'.. you could get them in catalogues and stores countywide very easily. I lived in an Amstrad bubble of all things but im not silly enough to think that my childhood was in any way representative of the wider UK.

I didn't know anyone with a C64 but I knew they were out there by the space shops like WHSmith gave over to their games! The NES was always a very small selection shoved in the corner with gimmicks like the light gun Zapper and Rob the robot as the main way Nintendo used to pull people in so late to the party it was silly! One person I knew bought a NES in 1992/93 and they knew they should have saved up for an A1200. SM3 was ALL they raved about. The ONLY excitement that came from NINTENDO in the 90s was the release of the Street Fighter 2 bundle. Super Mario World, Mario Paint and Super Star Wars were all fun demo games in shops but only Street Fighter 2 and possibly Doom actually sold SNES consoles in the UK not Mario.

[Retro1234]

The NES and SNES were both very popular in the UK this is reflected in magazines like Retro Gamer and Mario was also very popular this is the reason games like Giana Sister existed.

[Mixel]

Originally Posted by BigD

I didn't know anyone with a C64 but I knew they were out there by the space shops like WHSmith gave over to their games! The NES was always a very small selection shoved in the corner with gimmicks like the light gun Zapper and Rob the robot as the main way Nintendo used to pull people in so late to the party it was silly! One person I knew bought a NES in 1992/93 and they knew they should have saved up for an A1200. SM3 was ALL they raved about. The ONLY excitement that came from NINTENDO in the 90s was the release of the Street Fighter 2 bundle. Super Mario World, Mario Paint and Super Star Wars were all fun demo games in shops but only Street Fighter 2 and possibly Doom actually sold SNES consoles in the UK not Mario.

Rob and the Zapper were early additions to the NES lineup? I never knew anyone to actually buy R.O.B...

Again, what on earth were you using to guage people's excitement as it seems completely inaccurate? People in the UK bought Zelda, Castlevania, Yoshi, Mario Kart, SMW, Metroid, Starwing, Tetris, etc?! Lol. SMW is an incredible game. The closest thing the Amiga had to the SNES was the CD32.. Compare their libraries.

And then there was ... Pokemon?