The Real Thing vs Emulators MCMXCVIII: The Fight Back

[Unknown_K]

Its like a religious war, reason and common sense makes no difference in the conversation.

Next thing you know somebody will say emulated sex is as good as real sex, then I can tell them to go fuck themselves and they cant bitch about it.

[DrBong]

Originally posted by andyr
And I also agree that emulation isn't perfect but surely you agree that it's pretty good at the moment and that it's not going to be too long before emulation is 100% compatible.

100% compatibility before too long??!! They're only now approaching 100% compatibility on C64 emulators and they've been developed since the late 1980s. The C64 is a single machine, whereas the Amiga is a series of machines, each of which are far more complex than the C64. The internal workings of the C64 are quite well-documented, whereas C= were far less transparent about the Amiga (especially the AGA machines) and never actually released developer docs for a few critical aspects of the machines. The MMU is probably something that will never be 100% emulated, and can be quite a sticking point if you're an Amiga developer. Makes it somewhat difficult to develop on an emulator (just ask the WHDLoad guys), unlike the real thing. I could go on, but I think you get my drift........

[DrBong]

Originally posted by khephren
3) No room for thousands of floppies but lots of room for thousands of DMS files.

Funnily enough Amigas do support large capacity HDs, CD/RW, and DVD-ROM/RAM drives these days!

[StarEye]

Originally posted by andyr
What if an all singing, all dancing new Amiga was released tomorrow with brand new hardware and it used an emulator for backwards compatability (in a similar way to how the Playstation 2 runs Playstation 1 games under emulation). Older Amiga software would then be running on different hardware so would your definition of Amiga emulation change then?

Probably not very relevant, but the PS2 doesn't emulate PS1. It has a PS1 inside, as well as the PS2. Like a PS1-on-a-chip. That's why it works so well.

Otherwise, I like the real thing much better than emulation. The emulation doesn't feel like the amiga, no matter what people say to me. But people are different, while somebody like one thing, another dislikes the same thing. For me, it's not all about the software. It's about having the hardware. AmigaOne doesn't tempt me very much, and I think the only way a new Amiga would bring back the old glow, is if it was a customchipped computer. The Amiga had all the advantages of both a computer AND a console. That's what made me fall in love with it.

[Adeptus]

Personally, I'd love an A1200... have wanted one since they came out.
But my wife won't let me
I've managed to hang on to my CD32, & one of these days will get around to getting KB & mouse connected so it acts almost like a 'real' Amiga...

[StarEye]

Originally posted by Adeptus
Personally, I'd love an A1200... have wanted one since they came out.
But my wife won't let me

Seriously, you shouldn't let you wife decide what YOU want to do. Of course, she can't let you buy whatever you want either, but hey... there's not much harm in buying an Amiga 1200.

I confront my own wife when I want to buy something, and while she isn't always too happy with me spending money on stuff she doesn't want, she understand that we all have individual interests.

[manicx]

A real Amiga is a real computer. An emulated Amiga is a PC running Amiga software through an emulator. At the moment, I am trying to save as many REAL Amigas as possible because I love them. It cannot compare to emulation. Emulation is not crap though. I love that too since I can do things that I can't do with a REAL Amiga (for example use a monster A4k config with as much memory as I want). I use both with no problem. As I said though, a REAL Amiga cannot be replaced...

[khephren]

The Amiga is a nostalgia trip, just like the Speccy and 64. I have all three computers but don't use them because there is no reason for me to use them.

Emulators for all three computers do the job well enough for me on the PC, so the real thing can rot in the cupboard for all I care, so for me the REAL Amiga has been replaced.

[RCK]

Originally posted by khephren
I don't feel the need to justify my use of WinUAE, but since it's come up AGAIN, I use it because...

1) It's more convienient
2) The emulator is more forgiving about shite software coding
3) No room for thousands of floppies but lots of room for thousands of DMS files

End of story.

True, but what is pushing people to still use their real hardware is also Nostalgia

[Unknown_K]

Originally posted by RCK
True, but what is pushing people to still use their real hardware is also Nostalgia

I never had the real hardware when it was popular, so whats a good excuse for me using it now? I jumped from C64 to a 286 PC, while I have a C64c back in the collection I dont have a 286 (an oddball design).

[StarEye]

Amiga is an incredible piece of hardware, a computer like none other. Either you want to play with the computer, or you want to play games that was coincidently released on the Amiga. Not everything is nostalgia, someone actually love the hardware, and my amiga will soon be powerful enough to be an alternative to my PC. I will have my amiga in one room, and the PC in another, both connected to the internet.

Therefore, for some people, Amiga isn't nostalgia. It's an interest that goes beyond nostalgia.

[Chuckles]

While I recognize that emulation isn't perfect, I'd never go so far as to say that it never will be, so that aspect of the argument (for me) is a bit of a moot point. I emulate AND I run the real thing, but I do each for different reasons.

I emulate mainly because emulation provides me with a means of preserving the Amiga experience in some way that can survive even after my Amigas have ceased to function, in the event that ever happens. I also emulate because emulation allows me to see what the Amiga versions that are newer than my A1000, A500 and A2000 are like, as well as what the software that runs on those newer versions is like. Finally I emulate because emulation provides me a convenient way to test software for compatibility with the Amiga versions that I actually have, as well as serving as a source for software that can be transferred over to be used on the real thing.

I use the real thing for reasons that are less practical. I grew up in an era when the calculator had yet to be invented, much less home computers or video games. I saw the appearance of the first video games and home computers, both of which were very crude by modern standards. I witnessed firsthand the evolution of computers from homebrew kits, Apple II's, IBM PC's and Apple's Lisa and Macintosh. While each of those developments represented an improvement in technology over its predecessors, the release of the A1000 in 1985 represented the most significant single advancement on all fronts to me. The Amiga's graphics and sound cababilities far exceeded anything else available for a home user at the time, and it's ability to pre-emptively multitask was revolutionary in a home machine. When the machine was first introduced, I was quite simply awed by the achievement, and the fact than today's machines now also multitask and have superior graphics and sound to the A1000 doesn't make that achievement any less impressive. The Amiga was the first home machine where the games actually looked and sounded great (in my opinion), and that just gives it a "coolness" factor that no other machine can match. That's the main reason why I use the real thing. It's not so much nostalgia for me as it is respect for what the machine represents.

I just don't think you have to restrict yourself to one vs. the other here, and actually I find that emulation gives me an even greater appreciation of the Amiga. While I remain greatly impressed by the fact that I can run "Shadow of the Beast" in WinUAE on my PIII/700 while it looks right, sounds right and pretty much feels right, that's not the most impressive thing to me. The most impressive thing to me is that any of my Amigas can run the same game perfectly, with only 1/100th of the horsepower.

As usual, just my 2 cents worth ...

[andyr]

Originally posted by StarEye
[B]Probably not very relevant, but the PS2 doesn't emulate PS1. It has a PS1 inside, as well as the PS2. Like a PS1-on-a-chip. That's why it works so well.

The emulator is stored on a ROM and is called when the PS2 sees a PS1 disc has been inserted.

When talking in september of last year about the backwards compatability of the Playstation 3, Sony Computer Entertainment boss Ken Kutaragi said...

This trend [for backwards compatibility] started by Sony with the PS2, as backwards compatibility in home consoles was certainly not the norm before then - is set to continue with the PS3, which will offer emulation for the PS2 and hence for the PSone.

"PSone runs on the PlayStation 2 through emulation rather than actual hardware. PlayStation 3 will offer the same compatibility for PS2 software and the format will continue forever," he explained.

Link for quote: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/32615.html

Getting back to point in hand, Elitist wasn't perhaps the correct phrase to use - I think purist would have been better.

Your view, Akira, appears to be an example that is one extreme side of the argument. My view is perhaps at the centre point - I'm happy using both emulation and real Amiga (perhaps the more popular standpoint)? The extreme other side of the argument is that emulation surpasses the original hardware making Amiga hardware redundant.

I don't see why it has to be argument though. If a person dislikes emulation but likes hardware then why should that bother a person who dislikes the hardware and would rather use emulation, and vice versus? Both are still doing tasks that are Amiga related and in the sprit of Amiga.

Within the spectrum of choice that the argument suggests, it seems to me that all viewpoints are perfectly valid.

Regarding nostalgia - it is a real 'trip' to use some of the older software but the Amiga is still a machine that is a perectly capable computer and is still used in various ways by some people. I mentioned before that I've got Wordworth 7 and I just love it and still use it to write documents - nothing IMO beats it on looks or feel and it's a pleasure to use.

Conversely, Microsoft Word is a pain to use, looks ugly but on my system it's extremely responsive (especially considering my awful spelling!!!**). Again, an example of two ways of acheiving a same end and it comes down to personal preference as to which is used.

** My spelling isn't all that bad!!!

[gary]

I think emulation is a great tool for quickly producing software that can be run on a real Amiga - especially for people like me who only have a basic Amiga.

As far as emulating software that requires exact timing / hardware tricks such as games or demos I still haven't seen anything that runs without glitches (as brilliant as emulators such as WinUAE are).

I think a lot of people don't like emulation is because of inaccuracies that may give the wrong impression of the machine it is trying to emulate. I'm yet to see an Amiga program scrolling 100% smoothly on a PC under emulation - sometimes details like that really do injustice to games and give a bad impression of what a real Amiga is like.

In sort: Emulation is great, but for accuracy you need a real Amiga.

[Amiga1992]

Originally posted by khephren
The Amiga is a nostalgia trip, just like the Speccy and 64.

That might be the case for you. Since I still use my Amiga frequently is not a matter opf "nostalgia", but using a computer that serves me well for tasks I cannot do anywhere else, and where emulation will just not cut it.

Spiff, I mentioned above all my reasonings regarding expanded Amigas and the like. As I said a towered "actual" Amiga is not much of an AMiga to me either. And the thing that made an A1200 as much an Amiga as an A500, I believe, was the almost 100% hardware-level backwards compatibility. It's still almost teh very same hardware in there! It's not like the A1200 replaced the 680x0 line with something else.

[Fred the Fop]

Originally posted by gary

In sort: Emulation is great, but for accuracy you need a real Amiga.

You can say that for any console or computer that is emulated.
I only care for the games, and the emus do a pretty super job at that for me.

[manicx]

Emulators depend on the PC hardware. Although, most PCs today can emulate and play games with accuracy, it is not the same thing. A typical example is to play a game in emulated Amiga and then play the same game on a real Amiga. You will notice the difference in controls. Visually, it can be the same, but controls suck big time in emulation.

Personally, I am not using winUAE for games. I only do stuff that I can't do with 18MB of Ram...