A Look Back at Commander Keen - Page 2

Gzegzolka · 11 April 2023, 19:08

In with year did Comander Keen was released? Is there any list of early platform games for IBM PC? I must say in old days I was Amiga fanboy and I have only experience with commodore and amiga games. I have no opinion on that game because I do not know it. I know how it looks, but how do it looks compared to other IBM PC games from that time? From what I heard it was great success in shareware distribution and it was technically masterpiece compared to how other games worked.

desiv · 11 April 2023, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gzegzolka

In with year did Comander Keen was released?

December 1990...

Megalomaniac · 11 April 2023, 20:34

PC hardware of the time wasn't suited to platform games, and anything that's limited to EGA and PC Speaker will never stun compared to Amiga or Megadrive (or even ST) games, but I think they broke new ground on the hardware, were pretty well designed, and were part of John Carmack and John Romero's rise to success.

BigD · 11 April 2023, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

...but I think they broke new ground on the hardware, were pretty well designed, and were part of John Carmack and John Romero's rise to success.

You're being kind. Commander Keen makes Bart vs the Space Mutants seem good! I never saw the point of this! Dune 2 was the first time I saw that the PC was pushing the Amiga. The PC couldn't compete on platform games.

gimbal · 11 April 2023, 20:50

It was the best of a not good thing so to say, progress in the EGA PC speaker era. It wouldn't be until Keen 4 that I would really call a game in the franchise actually good, up to that point it was all "really old PC".

desiv · 11 April 2023, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigD

Dune 2 was the first time I saw that the PC was pushing the Amiga. The PC couldn't compete on platform games.

I think there is an assumption possibly that "not comparable to Amiga and/or console" means not good/fun.

I'm not sure that is the case.

Keen was (for a lot of people) fun.
Yes, not comparable to Amiga. But still fun. At least for some...

fxgogo · 12 April 2023, 00:26

Was never a fan of it. Any platformers on PC never were great. Even the 8bit micros did it better. I can understand people love for it though if you played it in the past.

Nobby_UK · 12 April 2023, 01:52

Have I already played Commander Keen ?

Only the Reflection - Keen Dreams port

The only PC games I played while Commodore was alive
would be FPS like:

Wolfenstein, DooM etc...

Bruce Abbott · 12 April 2023, 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by desiv

I think there is an assumption possibly that "not comparable to Amiga and/or console" means not good/fun.

I'm not sure that is the case.

Keen was (for a lot of people) fun.
Yes, not comparable to Amiga. But still fun. At least for some...

I know exactly what you mean. Commander Keen didn't have anything good going for it, just another boring platformer with sub-par graphics and sound. If it had been released on the Amiga in 1990 it would rightly have been rubbished. But the people playing it didn't have an an Amiga, they had a PC. So in their eyes it was wonderful!

Cris1997XX · 12 April 2023, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

I know exactly what you mean. Commander Keen didn't have anything good going for it, just another boring platformer with sub-par graphics and sound. If it had been released on the Amiga in 1990 it would rightly have been rubbished. But the people playing it didn't have an an Amiga, they had a PC. So in their eyes it was wonderful!

I don't know why you of all people are trashing the game, especially since you've got a lot of experience with IBM compatibles...it was decent for its time, kinda disappointing when compared with the Amiga and console's offerings, but it still paved the way for true PC gaming.

gimbal · 12 April 2023, 09:56

You took what you could get indeed. Including California Games and Test Drive. These were not games for people who bought a PC to play games, these were games for people who had a PC and also wanted to play games on it from time to time, the expectations were quite low. I can imagine that a game like Keen was as much an eye opener then as Half Life was many years later. You know, you've already seen it before but then someone does it a lot better.

TCD · 12 April 2023, 10:06

It was the first game to show that smooth scrolling was possible on a PC which wasn't designed to do smooth scrolling. The game itself is indeed (except for a few easter eggs) nothing to write home about, but it established that the PC could be used for gaming outside of RPGs, simulations, and adventure games. We all know how the story went from there.

Megalomaniac · 12 April 2023, 10:12

The other innovation was the episodic shareware business model, and heavy use of the early (pre World Wide Web) internet to market and distribute the game. Plus the system requirements for the game were low for the time, just a 286 with EGA, so the usual "why buy a VGA card and a sound card when a Mega Drive is cheaper and better?" argument doesn't apply here. Kids played it their dad's office computer while he wasn't looking, I guess - it passed the time until mum gave in and bought the latest NES game (which would look and sound better, at least). And it's those kids who've grown up to write the history of popular culture online, hence so much more about Commander Keen than so many better Amiga games of the same era. Life, eh?

drHirudo · 12 April 2023, 12:44

Commander Keen cashed on the special trick for scrolling invented by id Software - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_tile_refresh
Quote from the link above:

Quote:

It was most famously used by id Software's John Carmack in games such as Commander Keen to compensate for the poor graphics performance of PCs in the early 1990s

So it proved that inferior business oriented machines like the IBM-PC compatibles can have playable arcade-style games.
So, in fact id sosftware started replacing the Amiga as games machine as early as in 1990 with this game, later Wolfenstein and finally with DooM it was the end for the Amiga being considered as serous gaming machine.

Karlos · 12 April 2023, 12:51

What Commander Keen shows is that even inferior hardware is no match for human ingenuity.

TCD · 12 April 2023, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by drHirudo

So, in fact id sosftware started replacing the Amiga as games machine as early as in 1990 with this game, later Wolfenstein and finally with DooM it was the end for the Amiga being considered as serous gaming machine.

I think the problem (for the Amiga) was that people who would have bought an Amiga because it was more than a gaming console from 1990 on had the option to get a PC for the same reason. But it's a bit of a 'chicken-egg' kind of a problem: Did the PC catch up too fast or did Commodore improve the Amgia too slow. Most likely a mix of both.

Megalomaniac · 12 April 2023, 13:52

The PC never truly caught up with the Amiga for 2D action games, its just that 3D ultimately replaced 2D as the preferred form of action games, and PCs were ahead of Amigas there. Commander Keen was a sign of the 2D gap closing, Doom was a totally different gap opening up. In 1990 an Amiga was better for games and better value for serious tasks than a PC, in 1994 that probably wasn't the case anymore.

TCD · 12 April 2023, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

The PC never truly caught up with the Amiga for 2D action games

Jazz Jackrabbit and Raptor: Call of the Shadows are pretty impressive. By 1994 the PC had caught up with the Amiga in terms of 2D action games too. By yeah, that didn't sell the system at that point.

gimbal · 12 April 2023, 21:25

And also Duke Nukem 2, Warcraft 1 & Warcraft 2, Blackthorne, Prehistorik 2, Tyrian, Death Rally, Alien Carnage/Halloween Harry, Realms of Chaos, One Must Fall 2097... I was quite happy with my 486 for gaming.

Twiggy · 22 April 2023, 19:41

Better than most Amiga platformers.

View Poll Results: Have you already play to Commander Keen ?
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11 April 2023, 19:08	#21
Gzegzolka Registered User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Warszawa / Polska Posts: 1,862	In with year did Comander Keen was released? Is there any list of early platform games for IBM PC? I must say in old days I was Amiga fanboy and I have only experience with commodore and amiga games. I have no opinion on that game because I do not know it. I know how it looks, but how do it looks compared to other IBM PC games from that time? From what I heard it was great success in shareware distribution and it was technically masterpiece compared to how other games worked.

11 April 2023, 20:34	#23
Megalomaniac Registered User Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Eastbourne Posts: 1,080	PC hardware of the time wasn't suited to platform games, and anything that's limited to EGA and PC Speaker will never stun compared to Amiga or Megadrive (or even ST) games, but I think they broke new ground on the hardware, were pretty well designed, and were part of John Carmack and John Romero's rise to success.

11 April 2023, 20:50	#25
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 42 Posts: 6,972	It was the best of a not good thing so to say, progress in the EGA PC speaker era. It wouldn't be until Keen 4 that I would really call a game in the franchise actually good, up to that point it was all "really old PC".

12 April 2023, 00:26	#27
fxgogo Also known as GarethQ Join Date: May 2019 Location: Twickenham / U.K. Posts: 729	Was never a fan of it. Any platformers on PC never were great. Even the 8bit micros did it better. I can understand people love for it though if you played it in the past.

12 April 2023, 01:52	#28
Nobby_UK Registered User Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Liverpool Posts: 2,600	Have I already played Commander Keen ? Only the Reflection - Keen Dreams port The only PC games I played while Commodore was alive would be FPS like: Wolfenstein, DooM etc...

12 April 2023, 09:56	#31
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 42 Posts: 6,972	You took what you could get indeed. Including California Games and Test Drive. These were not games for people who bought a PC to play games, these were games for people who had a PC and also wanted to play games on it from time to time, the expectations were quite low. I can imagine that a game like Keen was as much an eye opener then as Half Life was many years later. You know, you've already seen it before but then someone does it a lot better.

12 April 2023, 10:06	#32
TCD HOL/FTP busy bee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Age: 46 Posts: 31,949	It was the first game to show that smooth scrolling was possible on a PC which wasn't designed to do smooth scrolling. The game itself is indeed (except for a few easter eggs) nothing to write home about, but it established that the PC could be used for gaming outside of RPGs, simulations, and adventure games. We all know how the story went from there.

12 April 2023, 10:12	#33
Megalomaniac Registered User Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Eastbourne Posts: 1,080	The other innovation was the episodic shareware business model, and heavy use of the early (pre World Wide Web) internet to market and distribute the game. Plus the system requirements for the game were low for the time, just a 286 with EGA, so the usual "why buy a VGA card and a sound card when a Mega Drive is cheaper and better?" argument doesn't apply here. Kids played it their dad's office computer while he wasn't looking, I guess - it passed the time until mum gave in and bought the latest NES game (which would look and sound better, at least). And it's those kids who've grown up to write the history of popular culture online, hence so much more about Commander Keen than so many better Amiga games of the same era. Life, eh?

12 April 2023, 12:51	#35
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,437	What Commander Keen shows is that even inferior hardware is no match for human ingenuity.

12 April 2023, 13:52	#37
Megalomaniac Registered User Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: Eastbourne Posts: 1,080	The PC never truly caught up with the Amiga for 2D action games, its just that 3D ultimately replaced 2D as the preferred form of action games, and PCs were ahead of Amigas there. Commander Keen was a sign of the 2D gap closing, Doom was a totally different gap opening up. In 1990 an Amiga was better for games and better value for serious tasks than a PC, in 1994 that probably wasn't the case anymore.

12 April 2023, 21:25	#39
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 42 Posts: 6,972	And also Duke Nukem 2, Warcraft 1 & Warcraft 2, Blackthorne, Prehistorik 2, Tyrian, Death Rally, Alien Carnage/Halloween Harry, Realms of Chaos, One Must Fall 2097... I was quite happy with my 486 for gaming.

22 April 2023, 19:41	#40
Twiggy \m/ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Devon, U.K. Posts: 573	Better than most Amiga platformers.

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