playsid.library with reSID support

[Calabazam]

I have a question about the reSID compatibility of playsid.library. In the case of a reSID is used to play sid files, is it still need to have a lot of CPU power?

[koobo]

Originally Posted by Calabazam

I have a question about the reSID compatibility of playsid.library. In the case of a reSID is used to play sid files, is it still need to have a lot of CPU power?

The reSID-enabled playsid.library will by default work in the original mode (as done by Per Håkan Sundell and Ron Birk) which will work on an A500.
If you enable the reSID mode (in HippoPlayer, or using a special environment variable), then a 68060 or something comparable is needed.

The latest playsid.library with reSID (and also SIDBlaster support) is available in the HippoPlayer archive: https://aminet.net/mus/play/hippoplayerupdate.lha

[Calabazam]

But how come? Is the not reSID or SIDBlaster doing the job playing through their SID? Why a 68060 is still needed if their is no emulation?

[koobo]

Originally Posted by Calabazam

But how come? Is the not reSID or SIDBlaster doing the job playing through their SID? Why a 68060 is still needed if their is no emulation?

reSID is a software emulator for the SID chip and it is quite heavy, that's why a 68060 (or something similar) is needed.

SIDBlaster is a USB-device that contains an actual SID chip. For this some CPU power is required to keep communicating through USB fast enough. I'm not sure what the exact CPU requirements are for SIDBlaster usage, I've heard it works fine with a 68060 though, but it should work with a slower CPU too.

[Calabazam]

I have now updated Hippoplayer to the latest from Aminet, installed the included playsid.library in LIBS: to replace mine and i am playing SID files with PlaySID mode ReSID 6581, reSID mode Normal and ReSID filter Internal + ext, but i only have about 2 - 3 % CPU load on a V1200 v2. I guess ReSID is not active there, as it should be more.
Sid4Amiga alone hits about 15% on my V1200v2 (45% on 68060).

[Calabazam]

Originally Posted by koobo

reSID is a software emulator for the SID chip and it is quite heavy, that's why a 68060 (or something similar) is needed.

SIDBlaster is a USB-device that contains an actual SID chip. For this some CPU power is required to keep communicating through USB fast enough. I'm not sure what the exact CPU requirements are for SIDBlaster usage, I've heard it works fine with a 68060 though, but it should work with a slower CPU too.

Ok i understand, i was mistaken and thought that reSID was another name for the SIDBlaster.

[koobo]

Originally Posted by Calabazam

I have now updated Hippoplayer to the latest from Aminet, installed the included playsid.library in LIBS: to replace mine and i am playing SID files with PlaySID mode ReSID 6581, reSID mode Normal and ReSID filter Internal + ext, but i only have about 2 - 3 % CPU load on a V1200 v2. I guess ReSID is not active there, as it should be more.
Sid4Amiga alone hits about 15% on my V1200v2 (45% on 68060).

Here the issue is likely that the CPU usage from playsid.library+reSID is not visible to the CPU load measuring applications which only measure CPU usage from ordinary tasks. playsid.library spends its time running inside audio interrupts and is therefore hidden, so to say.

There's one thing to try if you're interested, try the command "setenv PlaySIDDebug 1" in shell and then start playback. If you're running a classic screenmode, you should see a raster line CPU measurement on screen. The yellow area represents the CPU time used and the rest of the visible area the CPU time left. A simple 1x speed SID-tune should show about 30% of the screen yellow on a 68060.

[CCCP alert]

reSID as used in VICE, so I assume it's the same, requires a significant chunk of a single core of my AMD APU when it is enabled in the most accurate mode. If I enable sound playback warp mode is about 300% speed, if I turn off accurate SID emulation it goes up by ten fold, if I turn off sound emulation completely it only goes up slightly more.

Even then there are still some tracks that don't sound quite right even now, like the last 30 seconds of Lightforce by Rob Hubbard, sounds off as if it is playing on an 8580 even though I am using the best 6581 SID model for the job. Personally I am happy with the old 90s SID emulation on my Amiga, if I want better I switch on my C64 loaded up with SIDs on the SD card and a SIDplay program. The fact it even exists for a 7mhz OCS Amiga model and works pretty damn well is amazing given what it is trying to emulate.

[koobo]

Originally Posted by CCCP alert

reSID as used in VICE, so I assume it's the same, requires a significant chunk of a single core of my AMD APU when it is enabled in the most accurate mode.

The reSID version in playsid.library is a 68060-optimized assembler port, the original reSID C-implementation is not used. It runs in the fastest and least accurate operating mode. A 68060 is barely fast enough to run it

[Calabazam]

Originally Posted by koobo

Here the issue is likely that the CPU usage from playsid.library+reSID is not visible to the CPU load measuring applications which only measure CPU usage from ordinary tasks. playsid.library spends its time running inside audio interrupts and is therefore hidden, so to say.

There's one thing to try if you're interested, try the command "setenv PlaySIDDebug 1" in shell and then start playback. If you're running a classic screenmode, you should see a raster line CPU measurement on screen. The yellow area represents the CPU time used and the rest of the visible area the CPU time left. A simple 1x speed SID-tune should show about 30% of the screen yellow on a 68060.

Yes you are right. I used PM a small tool from Aminet as a simple CPUmeter but it is wrong here.
When checking the CPUmeter of DopusIV, playing with ReSID 6581, reSID mode Normal and ReSID filter Internal + ext costs 50 - 55 % on 68060@50 and 15 - 20 % on V1200 v2.
However, i think i have already toped my audition abilities, i can't really hear a big difference with Sid4Amiga or PlaySID which comes with the old library. One sure thing i that i hear that the 6581sid.library which comes with some C64 emulator is awful.
I don't own a real C64 either, so apart from Youtube vids i don't have personnal experience of the real SID sound.
I'm going to test further to try to use to the max the V1200 power to get the better out of playsid.library.

EDIT : sound seems indeed somehow more powerful and deeper with Oversample *4

[koobo]

Originally Posted by Calabazam

However, i think i have already toped my audition abilities, i can't really hear a big difference with Sid4Amiga or PlaySID which comes with the old library. One sure thing i that i hear that the 6581sid.library which comes with some C64 emulator is awful.
I don't own a real C64 either, so apart from Youtube vids i don't have personnal experience of the real SID sound.
I'm going to test further to try to use to the max the V1200 power to get the better out of playsid.library.

EDIT : sound seems indeed somehow more powerful and deeper with Oversample *4

Here are some test tunes if you want to experiment

• http://ftp.modland.com/pub/modules/P...a sisters.psid
  • In reSID "normal" mode in the beginning of this song some background noise is clearly heard, this can be reduced with "oversample".
• http://ftp.modland.com/pub/modules/H..._We_Aceeed.sid
  • This one makes heavy use of filters and sounds completely different without them.
• http://ftp.modland.com/pub/modules/H..._Beat_2SID.sid
  • This is a stereo SID tune so playsid.library runs two reSIDs to emulate two SID chips for 6-channel output. It also uses plenty of filters and is updated at 200 Hz (typical SID tunes are 50 Hz). A 68060 at 50 MHz can't play this with filters and high oversample.

[Calabazam]

Yes indeed, the differences are pretty clear on theses files, thanks.

Now i would like to know how one can set up the variables for using reSID though the lib with other softwares than HiP?

I also need to find a SidBlaster, seems to be more convenient than a Zorro SID card with this lib.

[koobo]

Originally Posted by Calabazam

Now i would like to know how one can set up the variables for using reSID though the lib with other softwares than HiP?

By setting an env variable you can only select between normal, reSID and SIDBlaster mode for now (reSID will use default settings with filters enabled).

I also need to find a SidBlaster, seems to be more convenient than a Zorro SID card with this lib.

I think these should be available for purchase at the moment (try google).

[DisasterIncarna]

a quick google shows another project called "exSID USB" meant to be based off the idea of sidblaster, wonder if thats still around/available?

[Calabazam]

Hello.

I now have a SidBlaster USB for my A4000. It is recognized by Poseidon on my Deneb.
However, i don't have a real SID but a X-Sid AudioBoost currently set as 8580.
I have modified the prefs of Hippoplayer to use Playsid mode : SIDBlaster. In that case, i suppose that reSID mode and reSID filter have no more effect.
Using this device allows me to play SID files with around 50% CPU out of my 68060/50, i expected less.
Sound seems nice, although a bit rough with maybe some background noise, but i can't modify the output level in my headphones. I need to test further which sounds better between SIDBlaster and pure ReSID with full options on the Vampire but it seems that the later has a cleaner sound.

Unfortunately, i still don't know how a real SID should sound as i have no real C64.

[DisasterIncarna]

maybe as a rough reference try the sampled MP3 music at https://www.6581-8580.com/socse/ which has recordings of sid tunes using both original sid chips and compare to the audio you get on your hardware.

Not sure how else you would compare with the best results.

[Calabazam]

Thanks for the link.
Actually, i am puzzled. I use to compare the rendering tunes from R-Type, Ghost'n Goblins and Monty on the run + this tune i discovered on IMP3 https://uploadnow.io/f/Nlx44Nn .
Recordings from 6581-8580.com are similar to the SidBlaster with the XSid, aka rough and a bit noisy, while playing them with the ReSID lib gives a cleaner and stronger sound, particularly in the first seconds of the Spirit of Art tune.
My X-sid is set as a 8580 because the jumper needed to have 6581 prevents me from closing the 3D printed box for the SidBlaster.
Listening seems more enjoyable with ReSID than hardware to me, but yet i count on this hardware to use less CPU and have native C64 sound with the Magic64 emulator. However, with 50-55% CPU just to play the music, it seems this objective can't be achieved. Anyway, i would need to know how to redirect the playsid.library call to the SidBlaster USB as in Hippo prefs to try it. How can i set the updated playSID.library between ReSID and SIDBlaster without Hippoplayer options?
There seem to be a problem between the Amiga and the SidBlaster though : it works, but after a while the sound hangs on a note, then the Amiga freezes. I don't know if this is coming from my Deneb or from the SidBlaster. It seems to be fine on a Win10 PC though.

[riker77]

Your main problem might be the subpar SID reImplementaiton used in the X-Sid. It is based on SwinSID nano, which has questionable compatability with a real SID.
No wonder, that the de facto reference reSID sounds better than the X-SID.

[koobo]

Originally Posted by Calabazam

However, with 50-55% CPU just to play the music, it seems this objective can't be achieved.

I think in this case most of the CPU usage goes into the actual USB-communication. I'm not super familiar with how this works personally.

Anyway, i would need to know how to redirect the playsid.library call to the SidBlaster USB as in Hippo prefs to try it. How can i set the updated playSID.library between ReSID and SIDBlaster without Hippoplayer options?

There's an ENV-variable that can be used for this:

setenv PlaySIDMode 3

This will enable SIDBlaster output with other apps (as in, not HippoPlayer) using playsid.library.

There seem to be a problem between the Amiga and the SidBlaster though : it works, but after a while the sound hangs on a note, then the Amiga freezes.

Unfortunately this is a known issue at the moment. Some more investigation is needed.

[Calabazam]

Originally Posted by riker77

Your main problem might be the subpar SID reImplementaiton used in the X-Sid. It is based on SwinSID nano, which has questionable compatability with a real SID.
No wonder, that the de facto reference reSID sounds better than the X-SID.

Yes i understand i need to find a real SID but that does not seem easy by now, and it would be a shame to deprive a real C64 of its chip.