How not to treat your fan-base: Nintendo vs Sega

[idrougge]

Well, no.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

i don't think an entire book of somebody else's commercial artwork is "fair use" at all.

But emphatically, its not all Nintendos work is it?

[-Acid-]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

But emphatically, its not all Nintendos work is it?

Without Nintendo's games there wouldn't be much left that would sell the book though really. They could continue without using images from those games but then would anyone buy it or indeed would they have backed it to begin with if they had been told no Nintendo first party games would be included?

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by -Acid-

Without Nintendo's games there wouldn't be much left that would sell the book though really. They could continue without using images from those games but then would anyone buy it or indeed would they have backed it to begin with if they had been told no Nintendo first party games would be included?

Thats not the point i'm making. Other than Nintendo's logos, not all the games images will be from de facto Nintendo produced games. I fail to see how Nintendo could enforce copyright game images to games they hold no copyright to.

If anyone wants to get bitchy about that, it would be LJN, Akklaim, Konami etc, etc, etc, the ACTUAL copyright holders of the games in question.

Thats no different to me taking action against people hosting Kickstart ROMS for Amigas when I don't hold the copyright.

[-Acid-]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

Thats not the point i'm making. Other than Nintendo's logos, not all the games images will be from de facto Nintendo produced games. I fail to see how Nintendo could enforce copyright game images to games they hold no copyright to.

If anyone wants to get bitchy about that, it would be LJN, Akklaim, Konami etc, etc, etc, the ACTUAL copyright holders of the games in question.

Thats no different to me taking action against people hosting Kickstart ROMS for Amigas when I don't hold the copyright.

That wasn't my point either

From Nintendo's POV this project wouldn't be worth making without their products, I doubt they even care about Konami or LJN's property in that respect. So they are looking at it as other people making money in-part from their copyrights.

Looking at the kickstarter page, they have only mentioned games they made as being infringing their copyright. I agree it's a bit over the top for 8 bit screen grabs from 30 year ago but i'm playing devils advocate here.

They could easily have done a deal for a share of any money made.

[B14ck W01f]

The amount of "A visual compendiums" people are making in droves is ridiculous.

[Cpt. Hindsight]

That's why every publisher of guidebooks of London has to pay a fee to Sir Norman Foster if there's a picture of "The Gherkin" in it.
Oh wait, they don't have to.

Can anyone tell me the difference?

Anyways. I don't see the point in those visual compendia either. Put some pics of old games on a USB stick and bring it to a printing service/copy shop if you like to have a book with screenshots.

[Amigajay]

Apparently he did get permission from Nintendo UK, so communication was lacking in-between their IP police and the UK branch, hopefully he can get it sorted by changing a few things i.e logo and putting unofficial in the title.

When i was putting my Lemmings book together i noticed i was being monitored on Twitter and me checking IP address on my website by the head Sony Europe Marketing, they could have been asses like Nintendo about it and made me change some stuff but they didn't, and probably felt communities and fan bases are based on spirit and goodwill and there really wasn't a point pursing a trivial case like mine, sorry but yeah Nintendo are just being dicks about this case.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

i don't think an entire book of somebody else's commercial artwork is "fair use" at all.

It does and very clearly so.
This is the exact same thing as reviewing these games in a non-Nintendo approved magazine except the reviews are all collected together. Fair use exists precisely because citizens right to access to critical review trumps the rights of the owner.

And to answer the other poster: copyrights rules are 100% international. Fair use included.

[Paul_s]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

They do not have to, the fair use exemption exists for a reason and this type of book qualifies 100%. Nintendo stands no chance in court from a theoretical standpoint. Alas, under the US court system they have a chance to outspend the defendant before he has a chance to make his (fairly simple) case.

You'd be nuts to try and find out the answer to that question in a court

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by Paul_s

You'd be nuts to try and find out the answer to that question in a court

No need, this has been tested successfully hundreds of time.
Go visit your bookstore: it is full of this type of works.

[Steve]

I think Nintendo really couldn't give a flying fox about the games images - I'm sure they are specifically peeved at the use of their 'Nintendo Seal of Quality' which is perfectly reasonable. Even if it was changed slightly, it was still a really daft thing to put on a Nintendo book without permission.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

And to answer the other poster: copyrights rules are 100% international. Fair use included.

No it's not. Fair use is an American law.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by idrougge

No it's not. Fair use is an American law.

To be precise, it is a doctrine and yes, the term is US specific but most civilized countries have similar ones thank god, otherwise there would be very few history and art books around there.

From Wikipedia:

Fair use is a US legal doctrine that permits limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. It is similar to the fair dealing doctrines used in some countries outside the United States.

Every western country has laws which limit copyrights in the areas where the limitation benefits the general public.
The right of information and critical review is recognized in all of them.

Also, remember the part where you mentioned that there was "no risk" in publishing that type of book?
Getting sued looks like a pretty big risk to me.

[Mrs Beanbag]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

To be precise, it is a doctrine and yes, the term is US specific but most civilized countries have similar ones thank god, otherwise there would be very few history and art books around there.

The UK is much more strict than other countries, the US has always had an exemption for works of satire for instance, in UK law this is a very new thing (2014).

History and art books are a different matter altogether though, since anything sufficiently old is out of copyright anyway.

There is an exemption in UK law for work used in "criticism and review" but to be honest i think it is really stretching it in this case, given the way the artwork is so prominently displayed, what the phrase "visual compendium" implies (i.e. that it is a book of artwork), that anyone buying it will hardly need a "review" of the games anyway and that as Bitmap Books says themselves it is to "relive your memories of classic gaming". I think they would have a hard time arguing fair use for criticism and review in a court of law. Then again, i'm no lawyer.

I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that has an exemption for "nostalgia".

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

To be precise, it is a doctrine and yes, the term is US specific but most civilized countries have similar ones thank god, otherwise there would be very few history and art books around there.

If the American interpretation of "fair use" was international, explain this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Every western country has laws which limit copyrights in the areas where the limitation benefits the general public.
The right of information and critical review is recognized in all of them.

Granted, but you have to make a case that you're closer to critial review than to a Panini sticker album.
Just like Mrs Beanbag writes above.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Also, remember the part where you mentioned that there was "no risk" in publishing that type of book?
Getting sued looks like a pretty big risk to me.

I also stated that that only applied to non-idiots.

[Mrs Beanbag]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Hindsight

That's why every publisher of guidebooks of London has to pay a fee to Sir Norman Foster if there's a picture of "The Gherkin" in it.
Oh wait, they don't have to.

Can anyone tell me the difference?

One has a specific exemption in law, and the other hasn't.

In fact not every company has such an exemption, and it can be illegal to publish photographs of certain buildings without permission.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_panorama

[S0ulA55a551n]

I hope they don't stop this which i backed and awaiting eagerly

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-ultimate-book

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by idrougge

If the American interpretation of "fair use" was international, explain this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros.

Interesting. But this is no proof, and I am not going to search through the pages history to verify that images are lacking because of Copyright issues.
If you are certain they are, then the link is welcome.

Originally Posted by idrougge

Granted, but you have to make a case that you're closer to critial review than to a Panini sticker album.
Just like Mrs Beanbag writes above.

Only after publication, not before, unless they have some magical way to know the exact content in advance. (There is likely a disclaimer somewhere indicating that the current trailer/images is no guarantee of the final content.)

Remember, Nintendo was able to stop this because they pressured the founding company. If this was a regular book publisher they would have no recourse before the actual publication.

Originally Posted by idrougge

I also stated that that only applied to non-idiots.

Funny and particularly easy to say from the comfort of our homes but without more information this is just speculation. We simply have no information about this guy professionalism and assuming anything is just wishful thinking.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Interesting. But this is no proof, and I am not going to search through the pages history to verify that images are lacking because of Copyright issues.

If you are certain they are, then the link is welcome.

Of course it is because of copyright issues. A dictionary isn't improved by having nonsense illustrations.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...echte#Fair_Use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_u...nternationally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_d...ed_Kingdom_law

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Only after publication, not before, unless they have some magical way to know the exact content in advance. (There is likely a disclaimer somewhere indicating that the current trailer/images is no guarantee of the final content.)

Remember, Nintendo was able to stop this because they pressured the founding company. If this was a regular book publisher they would have no recourse before the actual publication.

By the time you put your work on Kickstarter, you're in commercial territory, effectively selling your work. By that time, you should know very well whose work you're selling, and whether you have the legal right to do so.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Funny and particularly easy to say from the comfort of our homes but without more information this is just speculation. We simply have no information about this guy professionalism and assuming anything is just wishful thinking.

When you're dealing with defunct companies like Ocean or Bitmap Brothers, aiming for a niche market of Amiga fans, you may play it leisurely. But when you're dealing with Nintendo (and its millions of fans), the stakes are some orders of magnitude higher.