External Roctec RF382C-A floppy drive - not working

[solarmon]

OK, I think I've made a break through!

I was going to give an update about how I was getting some funny results and my suspicions with the track motor.

I noticed that when I took apart the track motor on a working Citizen drive, to lubricate the motor and mechanisms and to inspect it, it stopped working when I put it back together. And doing this for a non-working it can get some near successful but inconsistent results.

My gut instinct was the this track motor had something to do with the alignment issues I am having.

This was confirmed after I watched the this excellent Youtube video that was recently uploaded by GadgetUK64:

[ Show youtube player ]

Although this repair video was for a Chinon floppy drive, GadgetUK64 talked about how the track motor can be adjusted and used for fine tuning of track alignment.

Looking at the track motor on the Citizen drive again, you can see that the motor is connected to the board via a ribbon cable, and has a mounting plate to secure it down with two screws.:



Now, after all this time, I finally understand/realise that this design is to allow for fine track alignment!

The way you use it for fine track alignment is to loosen the screws and rotate the motor itself. This will, in turn, move the geared/teethed slider mechanism up or down depending on whether you rotate the motor clockwise or anti-clockwise:





The best way I could find to perform the fine adjustment is to use the Checkdisk feature in X-Copy. This is the process I used.

1. When I put the motor back in place, I made sure the bit where the ribbon cable connects to the motor is about 10/11 o'clock position. This will allow you to adjust it a bit clockwise or anti-clockwise before the ribbon interferes with the screws.

2. Tighten the top screw and leave the bottom one loose.

3. Using X-Copy, select the appropriate drive.

4. Start CheckDisk.

5. You only need to let it run for about three steps to see whether it has read OK or not. If it does not read OK, stop Checkdisk.

6. Push down the drive head, so that it does not get in the way. Hold the motor whilst you loosen the top screw, and rotate VERY slightly - maybe just 1 or 2 degrees or when you feel it move. Tighten the screw.

Go to step 4.

Repeat steps 4-6 for a particular direction. If it does not work then repeat in the opposite direction.

Eventually, when you are close to alignment, you might get something like this - with more green than red:



This is when you need to do even FINER adjustments, and VERY IMPORTANTLY do a Checkdisk with the bottom screw tightened. I found that when I had good alignment and went to tighten the bottom screw down, it would subsequently be mis-aligned again. That is how sensitive it seems to be with alignment!

Eventually, and hopefully, you will get both sides reading OK with Checkdisk. You should also use the Disk Info and Directory options to test. Do this several times to make sure you get 100% green 0's in Checkdisk before testing the drive and floppy disk in Workbench.

Also, test with as many floppy disks as you can - as not all floppy disks are equal! I found that I was getting good alignment with one disk but not with another. The GadgetUK64 explains that very well in the video above as to why this is the case.

I was able to align the second Citizen drive that I had, which I did not take completely apart. I've still to do more tests - like formatting and testing it against another floppy drive.

But I still can't get the first one, which I did take completely apart, to align properly - so there may be other header alignment or other factors at play. I was mainly just getting red 2's - which seems to be too consistent:



And it doesn't help that I lost the spring mechanism holding down the top read/write head. So I'm using a floppy disk spring as replacement. I don't know how effective this actually is!:



I will still persist with this first drive as I now know more than I did, and now know about the fine track alignment method.

So, a summary of the state of my Roctec/Citizen drives, which I will also update the OP with.

Drive #1 - NOT WORKING:
* Replaced belt - initially with 71mm belt, then with 69mm belt
* read/write heads interfered with
* Recapped
* Track alignment fine tuning

Drive #2 - WORKING
* Replaced belt - initially with 71mm belt, then with 69mm belt
* Recapped
* Track alignment fine tuning

Drive #3 and #4 - WORKING
* Replaced belt - 69mm belt

[solarmon]

Some more troubleshooting on the first faulty Citizen drive.

I corrected the head alignment by comparing it with a working drive - below you see the working drive on the right and the non-working one of the left, which need the top head to be moved down slightly:



However, this did not fix the issue and I was still getting 2's during Checkdisk.

I decided to check the ribbon cables and found this on for the top head:



I fixed it - just by folding it back flat and putting a bit of superglue underneath it, which seemed to do the trick.

I managed to find the sweet spot with the fine tuning method. BUT only if I appy a bit of pressure with a finger on the top read/write head. You can see the Checkdisk below - the green 0's is when I apply the pressure:



Obviously the replacement spring I used was not strong enough. Trying to mess about with this spring, I drop it on the floor and couldn't find it again... It was too weak anyway, so it was never gonna work.

Instead, I used some coins to apply the pressure - one 1p, and two 5p coins to be precise:



This gave enough pressure to get it to work consistently and Checkdisk was 100% successful:



So, I found a workaround, but its not a practical one - since it will not fit back in its case!

I just wish I could find the original spring!

However, I'm still happy because I have proven that my first Citizen drive, that I had taken completely apart, along with a recap is actually now working!

[Turrican_3]

Ahah that's a peculiar way to replace a spring.

Very nice work, it's awesome seeing stuff fixed, I know that feeling!

[solarmon]

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

Ahah that's a peculiar way to replace a spring.

Very nice work, it's awesome seeing stuff fixed, I know that feeling!

Yes! It is a great feeling when you finally fix something, and importantly, understand it as well - I've learnt a lot about floppy disk drives!

[mogouk]

Sweeeet Work Solarman your perseverance is paying off, plus you've gained a lot more knowledge on how to fix these and similar drives, cos as you know these are frustrating little ***stards. Well done

[solarmon]

Originally Posted by mogouk

Sweeeet Work Solarman your perseverance is paying off, plus you've gained a lot more knowledge on how to fix these and similar drives, cos as you know these are frustrating little ***stards. Well done

Thanks! I've always been persistent, especially with things that I want to get working, but can't get working because I don't know enough about it!

The main thing is that I hope my findings will help others fix their floppy drives too!

[solarmon]

I got myself three more 'faulty' Citizen drives:





Each one had the expected belt issue, in various states of decay:



The one that is still in one piece was stretched too much for it to work.

I just replaced them with 69mm belts and they all worked fine, after cleaning the read/write heads and lubricating the worm gear.

These Citizen drives are 26-pin ones, so not normal 34-pin Shugart ones. So they can't be used in other normal enclosures. So I still don't know why I got them, other than to try to get them working.

[TjLaZer]

Hey all, I have a RocTec drive with the same issue, stopped working. Assumed it was the belt. It was intermittantly reading disks, then just stopped one day. After that I would get a buzz sound when I would insert a disk. I would get the DFX: ???? on Workbench. Replaced the belt and no change, wonder if it's a bad gear or something? I never dismantled the drive, I carefully replaced the belt with tweezers.

I posted a video, check it out:
[ Show youtube player ]

[solarmon]

It sounds like the track motor is trying to move the read/write heads beyond its limit and the gear mechanism are grinding/slipping together. You can see it in the video that it is trying to move towards the center of the floppy.

It should be moving the read/write heads to track 0, but it seems to be doing the opposite of this. It could be

Does your external floppy interface work with another external floppy drive?

I would suggest you use Amiga Test Kit to test the floppy drive functions of this floppy drive. You can use this to control the track motor and step through the tracks to see if the floppy drive is actually responding and working as expected.

I assume the internal floppy drive(s) are working OK?

[TjLaZer]

Originally Posted by solarmon

It sounds like the track motor is trying to move the read/write heads beyond its limit and the gear mechanism are grinding/slipping together. You can see it in the video that it is trying to move towards the center of the floppy.

It should be moving the read/write heads to track 0, but it seems to be doing the opposite of this. It could be

Does your external floppy interface work with another external floppy drive?

I would suggest you use Amiga Test Kit to test the floppy drive functions of this floppy drive. You can use this to control the track motor and step through the tracks to see if the floppy drive is actually responding and working as expected.

I assume the internal floppy drive(s) are working OK?

Yes other drives work fine, internal and external. Tried it on a few different Amigas too.

[solarmon]

OK - have you tried Amiga Test Kit to test/check the floppy disk signals of this faulty drive?

If you move the read/write head back and forth, does the gear/teeth mechanism feel OK/smooth?

Post some clear closeup pictures of the various mechanisms (especially the track motor gear mechanism) and various connectors and I will compare it to mine to rule out any physical issues. But it looks like to me a electrical/signalling/logic issue that is causing it to seek inwards.

[TjLaZer]

Tried it, says no track 0. It's done. Where did you find these drives from?

[solarmon]

Originally Posted by TjLaZer

Tried it, says no track 0. It's done. Where did you find these drives from?

Can you not move the heads back and forth with Amiga Test Kit? You can manually control it and set the DIR= and keep hitting the STEP= button. And if you press the Step button it should toggle between track 0 and track 1.

I find the drives from eBay - usually as 'faulty' and fix them. I find either complete Roctec external drive controller/enclosure or as just the Citizen floppy drive.

[TjLaZer]

Originally Posted by solarmon

Can you not move the heads back and forth with Amiga Test Kit? You can manually control it and set the DIR= and keep hitting the STEP= button. And if you press the Step button it should toggle between track 0 and track 1.

I find the drives from eBay - usually as 'faulty' and fix them. I find either complete Roctec external drive controller/enclosure or as just the Citizen floppy drive.

No. Says No Ready Signal: PC or Escom drive? No track: Drive not present? error or something and makes the buzz sound. Drive is dead I guess. Where can I get another mech?

[solarmon]

Originally Posted by TjLaZer

No. Says No Ready Signal: PC or Escom drive? No track: Drive not present? error or something and makes the buzz sound. Drive is dead I guess. Where can I get another mech?

Sounds like you are just doing the read test. The manual controls are in the Floppy drive signal tests bit. The latest Amiga Test Kit v1.5 allows for toggling of STEP and DIR.

If you don't want to troubleshoot further then, as stated already, you'll have to look for replacement drives on eBay or Facebook. I got lucky recently and scored three 'faulty' Citizen drives from eBay for 99p (plus £5 postage) and they just needed a clean and the drive belts replaced - see post #27 above.

[Tumppi]

Hello.
I have this same drive and it does not work. Belt and caps have been replaced.
When i push heads to track 0 and insert disk, it reads ok and workbench shows disk icon. After that it gives read errors. But when i push heads back to track 0, it reads again until next error. Again push heads back and it reads ok.

In what position heads should be after inserting disk? In this drive heads stays where it was. Should it move to track 0?

Drivetest shows track 0 signal randomly on every track. No signal when i block the opto switch. Maybe its faulty?

[solarmon]

Originally Posted by Tumppi

Hello.
I have this same drive and it does not work. Belt and caps have been replaced.
When i push heads to track 0 and insert disk, it reads ok and workbench shows disk icon. After that it gives read errors. But when i push heads back to track 0, it reads again until next error. Again push heads back and it reads ok.

In what position heads should be after inserting disk? In this drive heads stays where it was. Should it move to track 0?

Drivetest shows track 0 signal randomly on every track. No signal when i block the opto switch. Maybe its faulty?

During my initial investigations, I thought that the track 0 opto switch was faulty. However, with this floppy drive model is seems to need to have the MOTOR enabled for this TRACK0 to work.

Nowadays, I use Amiga Test Kit rather DriveTest to test the floppy disk signals - so I would recommend you use that.

When a floppy disk is inserted, the floppy drive should seek to track 0.

However, please note that DriveTest will disable normal floppy drive functions - so when you insert a disk it will not do anything, until you give it instructions/actions to do anything - you will have to manually step the track motor to get it to track 0.

If you have removed the track motor then it is likely that it is now not aligned - so you will need to re-align it. I use the X-Copy CheckDisk feature to help with alignment - see my earlier posts in this thread on how to do that.

[solarmon]

Also check that the disk presence sensor/switch is also working.

[Tumppi]

I checked with Amiga test kit. Same results.
Track 0 opto switch works, checked with scope.


Heads does not go back to track 0 when disk is inserted.


If I push heads to track 0 and start calibration test it shows 11/11 ok on both sides. Heads pushed to track 0 and read test shows all tracks OK.


Signal test shows only 4 cylinders. RDY signal OK, TR0 signal OK (when heads are pushed to track 0). No Index Pulses when motor is spinning.


If I move heads more than 4 steps from track 0 and then try move them back, one step and TR0 signal comes on. Somehow drive gets wrong TR0 signal?

[solarmon]

In the ATK Signal Test, when you select the drive ("F2: DF1" in my case) it should seek the read/write heads to the inner most track and back to track 0 again. This test shows where the track motor is working and whether it can step the heads all the way in and back again.

With this drive the index pulses will increase when the motor is on and when the disk is in - i.e. the disk presence sensor is activated.

The "F6: Step" option with step in or out of track 0 each time you press it - so this is good test for the track 0 sensor.

If you have "F8: DIR=1" this will set the direction towards track 0. When in this direction I also get the '4 cylinders"/track behaviour. You need to set "F8: DIR=0" to set the direction towards the inside, and then keep hitting "F7: STEP=0/1" to get the head to move towards the inside.

You should try the Head Calibration Test to see if your drive needs calibration/alignment. If you have taken out the track/stepper motor then it will need re-alignment.