Scan lines on an LCD?

[jbenam]

Originally Posted by Calabazam

What do you think of this device? https://www.amazon.fr/Mcbazel-G%C3%A...ps%2C69&sr=8-2

If modded properly (I took a stock GBS-8200 and did the mods myself) it is a pretty decent device that works good enough, even in interlaced modes.

My advice is that if your only retro device is an Amiga, to purchase an Amiga-specific scandoubler. Peripherals like the GBS-C are pretty good in supporting a wide range of consoles and devices, but it requires some fiddling with configs.

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Seems like a rather simple device to create basic scanlines. Nothing sophisticated as simulated in recent emulator shaders or the Retrotink 5x Pro/Mister. More like what we've got in the beginning of Emulation or in all the Classic Mini gadgets from the last years. If it's enough for you, why not.But it's really only useful for 4:3 VGA monitors (CRT or very old LCDs i guess) since it only supports 640x480 or 1024x768 resolutions. The scanlines would look off/unaligned on todays native LCD TV/monitor resolutions.

Indeed, I have 5:4 LCDs laying around specifically for use with my Amigas with the scandoubler. Many 16:9 LCDs offer the possibility to be at least set in 4:3, though. Some also support 5:4.

They are very basic scanlines though, yes. A RetroTink 5x would do wonders with its PVM mode.

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

MiSTer with HLG-HDR on my LG C9 OLED, a Retrotink 5x Pro shadowmask (consumer Sony TV) with decent Scanlines. A crappy smartphone pic but you get the idea.

Slowly working towards having your same setup Waiting on the RetroTink 4K, specifically. I don’t have an OLED yet, but I wanted to test with my Samsung HDR (FreeSync capable) gaming TV first

[lesta_smsc]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

MiSTer with HLG-HDR on my LG C9 OLED, a Retrotink 5x Pro shadowmask (consumer Sony TV) with decent Scanlines. A crappy smartphone pic but you get the idea.

So this is a shader on OLED?

[Retro-Nerd]

It's a built-in CRT filter/shader in the Mister FPGA settings. But only my preference (to mimic a Sony Trintitron TV). But you can tweak it with tons of different masks, scanlines, gamma, contrast, sharpness etc. The Retrotink 5x Pro scaler has similar advanced features. So, real machines pretty much look the same.

[lesta_smsc]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

It's a built-in CRT filter/shader in the Mister FPGA settings. But only my preference (to mimic a Sony Trintitron TV). But you can tweak it with tons of different masks, scanlines, gamma, contrast, sharpness etc. The Retrotink 5x Pro scaler has similar advanced features. So, real machines pretty much look the same.

This is very interesting! The shader have a name? I'm assuming it may be on RPi then I could potentially try it on my LED TV! Have you tried this shader on say a 15khz monitor to get native resolution but with shader on top?

[Retro-Nerd]

I don't think this on RPi. It's a PVM monitor filter, but with a different shadowmask from the preset. There should be some more simplistic CRT filters/shaders avaible for the Pi.

Have you tried this shader on say a 15khz monitor to get native resolution but with shader on top?

I don't understand this exactly. Native resolution of what? My MiSTer has an analogue video out board too. So that's looking nice on every 15KHz capable RGB scart CRT TV/monitor. Nothing beats the real hardware masks/scanlines. But on the big OLED (with this CRT stuff) it is of course more impressive these days.

[lesta_smsc]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

I don't understand this exactly. Native resolution of what? My MiSTer has an analogue video out board too. So that's looking nice on every 15KHz capable RGB scart CRT TV/monitor. Nothing beats the real hardware masks/scanlines. But on the big OLED (with this CRT stuff) it is of course more impressive these days.

Well Mister can output at 15khz. If you put that on an LCD you will get pixilated appearance. However, if you then apply your shader to this 15khz output it may look much nicer?

Nothing beats real hardware, but the RPi is very much the same in terms of graphical appearance as my original Amiga on CRT, except the RPi can run faster than an accelerated Amiga without the cost of it!

[Retro-Nerd]

If you put that on an LCD you will get pixilated appearance. However, if you then apply your shader to this 15khz output it may look much nicer?

Yeah, directly Scart RGB connected the Mister doesn't look good on a LCD TV/monitor. You need a videoscaler, like the OSSC or Retrotink 5x Pro for a decent Image.The Mister shaders were made for 1080p or higher resolutions anyway. The would look like lego-vision in native low resolution.

[ImmortalA1000]

Lotus II looks just fine on my 60" Plasma Vierra via SCART RGB.

To replicate the look of a CRT you need a glossy screen, horizontal AND the often forgotten 1/3 thickness vertical lines between each phosphor dot as well as the very subtle red/blue shift left to right of each pixel. Also need to round off the edges of the square pixels of an LCD panel.

You could do a nice 625 line PAL simulation on a 4K TV if you knew how a proper CRT image looked but no manufacturer would ever bother.

[Retro-Nerd]

The Retrotink 4K will be a gamechanger for proper CRT simulation. At that resolution, with subpixel effects too, it will look very authentic. I have no doubt. A 100% fully re-created CRT look probably need 8k resolution though.

In 2560x1440 it already starts to look better though: Real A1200+Retrotink 5x Pro+LG OLED with HLG-HDR. Click to enlarge!

[NorthWay]

It is hard to judge just by such snaps, but it still seems to me that the 'punch' of the colours are missing compared to what a CRT gives you.
I had hoped that using an OLED with the right filtering would be able give the strength to the colours that they deserve?
(And it is a 15KHz VS 31KHz issue too - VGA style monitors are just not the same.)

[nikosidis]

I big problem I notice with digital screens is that they loose the sharpness or detail when there are movement in many Amiga, C64 games. CRT never have that problem.

[Retro-Nerd]

As i said, these are crappy smartphone pics. The colors on the OLED are great. Especially the HDR function (HLG, because it's 8bit and fully compatible to SDR without a color convertion) in the MiSTer and Retrotink 5x Pro gives you the lively punch you'd usually expect from a CRT. You can't capture the HDR luminance boost in a photo.

[Mixel]

Shaders for me.. The sort of scanlines for example the OSSC can add look pretty silly. I was looking for the longest time for a CRT that would offer the "real" experience but.. The space used up/horrible whine, eye strain - not worth it. Few CRTs in existance are going to look as nice as a decent 55" OLED running shaderglass with any of the really well thought out shaders. Or CRT Royale etc. And they're just getting better all the time! That's for emulation though.. As for applying that sort of effect to the real deal.. I don't know how easy that'd be without a retrotink 5x or something anyway..

I've tried outputting my preview window from my capture card but because of the way the elgato plays with the OSSC it's very difficult (if not impossible) to get the pixels to line up with the scanlines correctly, and misplaced scanlines look terrrrrrrrible. Seems wrong that i can get a more era-appropriate, accurate screen out of emulation than I can on my real amiga though. :/

[fxgogo]

Agreed Mixel, some times we put CRT’s on this rose tinted pedestal. Even the the curvature of the glass used to be a problem for me when doing pixel artwork. There are drawbacks to the old ladies that should be talked about.

My kids literally ran away when I showed them an interlaced display on a Sony PVM I brought home from work. The whine caused them to run further out of the house. God knows what would of happened if I had a consumer grade tv??.

[jbenam]

The truth is that CRT is an inherently inferior technology on many aspects - maybe except contrast and refresh speed. The size, the weight, the heat, the curvature, the whine… they’re all drawbacks. But CRT has been romanticised to no end and it has been used by sellers to drive up prices for what was essentially considered trash just a few years ago.

Don’t fall for it and fuel this insane obsession for hardware that will fail very soon and require expensive repairs - like it happened to me and some people I know that had 1084S go boom just after a few hours of use.

I have also often compared IPS to CRT and you won’t usually see any of those highly sought-after “phosphor effects” unless you’re using a very low end CRT. My 1084S and 1541 are almost identical to my LCD in terms of clarity.

Go for a good scandoubler (with scanlines simulation, if possible) and save yourselves the very real headaches you will get from using a real CRT

[rare_j]

Just sit eight feet back and remove glasses. As a gentleman of a certain age I'll be lucky to see the telly, let alone the pixels.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by rare_j

Just sit eight feet back and remove glasses. As a gentleman of a certain age I'll be lucky to see the telly, let alone the pixels.

That was the best laugh I had in 2023 so far

[Nobby_UK]

Nay

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by rare_j

Just sit eight feet back and remove glasses. As a gentleman of a certain age I'll be lucky to see the telly, let alone the pixels.

I remember getting a 49 inch Ultra HD TV back in 2014 or so and realising how completely pointless it was. It did make a good monitor for a while though.

[Damion]

I think "CRT" has to be qualified, as many of them, including most iterations of the venerable 1084 (and even the consumer-grade Trinitron TVs popular now) were not too great IMO. I still use PVMs along with a few good 17" CRT monitors (with an Indivision or similar), they do not whine and for me are obviously superior to any LCD for Amiga gaming. To get the best out of them requires fiddling and eventual maintenance, and the distortion/geometry niggles can be annoying. If you use your Amiga for reading text at 50 Hz, yeah, that can grate on the eyes a little (less so with the 15 kHz displays, which tend to have a longer phosphor persistence).

I'm really intrigued by the pictures posted by Retro-Nerd. I've had an A1200 connected to a 55" OLED via an Indivision MK2 and was floored (absolutely incredible in person), but I haven't yet tried the MiSTer with it or the CRT simulation.

>It is hard to judge just by such snaps, but it still seems to me that the 'punch' of the colours are missing compared to what a CRT gives you.
I had hoped that using an OLED with the right filtering would be able give the strength to the colours that they deserve?

Trust me, you absolutely get the punch with an OLED that you would with something like a PVM. It's insanely good. I watched the Wild slideshow and recall thinking it was like a giant PVM.

I don't remember any serious deficits regarding motion clarity (unlike LCD which is just awful in this regard) but will have to give it another spin soon for sure.