Scandoubler / Flickerfixer Production? - Page 2

Chain · 07 February 2007, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick_AKA

the outlandish prices associated with scandoublers/flickerfixers are just totally unjustified when almost every TFT, LCD and Plasma on the market can do the job.

also you cant beat picture quality of internal scandoubler

at least not with some tft connected to composite out

alexh · 07 February 2007, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by chain

also you cant beat picture quality of internal scandoubler

AFAIK external scan doublers are exactly the same hardware as internal ones. The internal ones just get the signal before being routed to the 23-pin connector. It makes them more "aesthetically" pleasing for use in towers but are functionally the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

would be seriously interested (read: most certainly buy one)... but ONLY as long as the scandoubler offers 24-bit

No "cheap" scandoubler can offer 24-bit I fear. All the existing silicon I've seen is for the TV market and uses a 16-bit (565) input which is more than good enough for analogue TV. A custom solution would be prohibitively expensive. Unless someone can find one that does 24-bits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_hairy_bootson

Why SCART?

Economics dictate that it should be made for a wider market than just Amiga to increase the number of sales to the point at which it is possible to cover the R&D + Manufacturing costs whilst keeping the price low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_hairy_bootson

I want a scandoubler for the amiga only

Tough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_hairy_bootson

I have a RGB to scart connector but others outside of Europe will not

They could buy one, or one could be included.

T_hairy_bootson · 07 February 2007, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Economics dictate that it should be made for a wider market than just Amiga to increase the number of sales to the point at which it is possible to cover the R&D + Manufacturing costs whilst keeping the price low.

Scart is widespread in Europe only. So you have just divided the market. Also the scart to RGB cable increases the price. If you want the extra feature you should pay for the extra cable not the other way round.

alexh · 07 February 2007, 17:57

Out of curiosity, what do they have Oz to connect stuff to the TV?

Just composite or RF?

P.S. It's not me that is thinking of making them, it's PEnemy. If he wanted to make a single PCB with the ability to put a either a 23-pin D connector OR a SCART connector that is feasible.

I recommend against making two different PCB's or putting both connectors on and just "wiring" them together.

Chain · 07 February 2007, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

AFAIK external scan doublers are exactly the same hardware as internal ones. The internal ones just get the signal before being routed to the 23-pin connector. It makes them more "aesthetically" pleasing for use in towers but are functionally the same.

i dont think, as you are connecting it to lisa, so dac BT101 is simply bypassed when you have internal SD.

external SD is digitalising signal again and there is really some ghosting etc.

alexh · 07 February 2007, 18:05

D'oh! I take it back, I thought the video DAC's were inside the custom chips.

http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/haynie/c...a/lisaspec.pdf

Ah... I see a gotcha too. You need to also connect to the Alice chip too (or the 23-pin video connector) as not all the signals (Sync) are available on the Lisa!

We need to find a new low cost ASIC scandoubler/FF that has a 24-bit input....

Otherwise you'd have to do the design yourself and use an FPGA with enough block-RAM to hold a field of data (About 700Kbytes) or you'll have to add external DRAM and before you know it you'll have re-invented the FlickerMagic T

T_hairy_bootson · 07 February 2007, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Out of curiosity, what do they have Oz to connect stuff to the TV?

Just composite or RF?

Both options on older and newer cheap TVs. Expensive and newer TVs will have S-Video and RGB and composite. I know composite is inferior to SCART but it just never really caught on here unless you bought a blaunkpunt (not sure on spelling) or another expensive German TV. Even the 1084 monitors sold here didnt have the scart connectors in them.

Mick_AKA · 07 February 2007, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penemy

Ok, what resolution, and WHERE can you find 15" LCD for 75 EUR?

Got my Samsung 150MP off eBay (and it was less than 75 EUR!)

I have yet to see any blurriness on it running through the SVHS cable, everything is crystal clear, im guessing it works differently than my Samsung 913N on my mac which looks blurry and horrible in anything other than 1280x1024.

07 February 2007, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick_AKA

Got my Samsung 150MP off eBay (and it was less than 75 EUR!)

I have yet to see any blurriness on it running through the SVHS cable, everything is crystal clear, im guessing it works differently than my Samsung 913N on my mac which looks blurry and horrible in anything other than 1280x1024.

Well, maybe you didnt know, but 150Mp / 170Mp are no longer in prodcuts since 3 years ;-)

Smiley · 07 February 2007, 19:19

I would probably get one for my A600 if it was small enough not to hang 10cm out the back

Mick_AKA · 07 February 2007, 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penemy

Well, maybe you didnt know, but 150Mp / 170Mp are no longer in prodcuts since 3 years ;-)

I never said it was new did I?

Does it really matter?

How much Amiga hardware do you buy that's brand new?

Olecranon · 07 February 2007, 20:44

Interesting. I was actually thinking about this topic earlier today and made a post on Amigaworld. I'll just Cut&paste it here.

Pretty much every HDTV in existance contains a flicker fixer(scandoubler/deinterlacer). It seems like it should be an easy matter to make a cheap flicker fixer for any amiga. I've read that the 23 pin D-Sub connectors are hard to find? Couldn't something that plugs into the denise chip be easy to make? $170 for an external toastscan seems ridiculous. Even a cheap device that outputs S-Video would be useful.

Component video would be even better. My old DVD player outputs 480I (interlace) via component. My panasonic plasma TV then takes the 480I signal and converts it to 720P (native resolution). In effect, acting as a deinterlacer/scandoubler.

I live in the US, so SCART is pretty useless here.

The only reason I can see for needing a scandoubler/deinterlacer for your x-box, x-box 360, ps2, or ps3 would be to connect it to a computer monitor. I'm not sure why anyone would do that? Most people would rather play on a larger TV screen than even a 21" LCD Flat panel. You dont need a scandoubler/deinterlacer to play your xbox/xbox360/ps2/ps3 on a HDTV. You can get a cheap component, DVI, or HDMI cable to connect it to your TV and let your TV do the flicker fixing. An HDTV will even upconvert S-VIDEO to it's native resolution.

Olecranon · 07 February 2007, 23:02

This brings me to one final question. Component is basically an analog RGB signal. Would it be possible to custom wire a cable from the Amiga 23 pin RGB connector to a standard Y'PbPr Analog Component Video without any electronics?

alexh · 07 February 2007, 23:05

Component isnt analog RGB it is analog "colour difference". It's a totally different colourspace model. Conversion is not possible without digital electronics.

23-pin D connectors are easy to source and are about $0.70 each (which I guess isnt that cheap but hey)

Mick_AKA · 07 February 2007, 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olecranon

The only reason I can see for needing a scandoubler/deinterlacer for your x-box, x-box 360, ps2, or ps3 would be to connect it to a computer monitor. I'm not sure why anyone would do that?

Because not everyone can afford a HD TV, and the vast majority of monitors will hapilly run HD resolutions.
I do think its disgusting that in other contries you seem to be able to get CRT HD ready TV's for a few hundred quid whereas here in the UK even a cheap ass 21" HD from woolworths or aldi will set you back 400 pounds

killergorilla · 07 February 2007, 23:32

Why the hell would a TV take 480i through component? What's the point?

Olecranon · 08 February 2007, 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by killergorilla

Why the hell would a TV take 480i through component? What's the point?

A couple reasons..

First, every newer/modern HDTV upconverts (scandoubles/deinterlaces) the incoming signal to it's native resolution. For example; my Panasonic 42" plasma has a native resolution of 720p. Everything coming into the set gets upconverted to 1366x720. If I connect a crappy interlaced composite source, I'll get a bad 1366x720 representation of that source. Notice I said composite, not component

Normal DVD's are encoded in 480i (525i for pal?). You need to get into HD-DVD or Blu Ray before the content on the disc is encoded at any higher.

So, DVD players that upconvert (progressive scan players) are doing the scandoubling/deinterlacing of 480i content in the DVD player electronics, and then outputing it at 720p, 1080i, or 1080p (depending on your HDTV configuration). This is not always the best situation though. You need to do some visual comparisons to figure out if the the scandoubler/deinterlacer built into the HDTV is better than the scandoubler/deinterlacer built into the upconverting DVD player. If the one in your TV is better, you'll get a better picture if you output the native 480i signal and let the HDTV do the scandoubling/deinterlacing. If the one in your upconverting DVD player is better, then let it do the work and set it to output at the HDTV's native resolution.

Component is an analog RGB signal. So even at 480i (525i for pal), it's a cleaner signal than S-Video or composite.

Quote:

Mick_AKA

Because not everyone can afford a HD TV, and the vast majority of monitors will hapilly run HD resolutions.
I do think its disgusting that in other contries you seem to be able to get CRT HD ready TV's for a few hundred quid whereas here in the UK even a cheap ass 21" HD from woolworths or aldi will set you back 400 pounds

I feel your pain. But for X-box/PS2 games, I would think most people would rather play them through S-Video, composite, or SCART on a 27"-36" standard definition TV (480i NTSC/525i PAL) instead of a 15"-21" LCD/CRT monitor?

One thing to keep in mind. The xbox can already output 480P and 720P, so it can already output a scandoubled/deinterlaced video signal. The X-box 360 and PS3 can output 420P (525P PAL)-31.47kHz, 720P (750P PAL)-45.00kHz, 1080i (1125i PAL)-33.75kHz, and 1080P (1125P PAL)-67.50kHz. I'm not sure what the purpose of running those systems through a scandoubler/deinterlacer would accomplish since they can already do it internally?

I guess what I'm saying is this. If your going to build a flicker fixer, dont worry about making it connect to all kinds of different systems. Make it work on the Amiga

killergorilla · 08 February 2007, 11:05

Cheers, does shed some light on why you'd use component interlaced.

Just never really thought about it as I figured there wouldn't be anything with component outputs that doesn't already output in 480p. Forgot that progressive scan players can still output in 480i.

Still, just the same as using RGB scart really.

(Apart from the availability outside of EUR)

jabsy · 08 February 2007, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_hairy_bootson

Both options on older and newer cheap TVs. Expensive and newer TVs will have S-Video and RGB and composite. I know composite is inferior to SCART but it just never really caught on here unless you bought a blaunkpunt (not sure on spelling) or another expensive German TV. Even the 1084 monitors sold here didnt have the scart connectors in them.

I have a few 1084's with SCART. Plus I've made sure that the last 3 tv's I've bought have had at least 1 SCART socket. The last one was only last week, and I'm yet to plug an amiga into any of them...

I've used the scart for my old original psx, plus a couple of sat decoder boxes I use have scart outputs as does my digital tv-hdd recorder

Will the amiga plug into the rgb connectors (9 pin???) on some tv's and projectors???? I've never thought of that.

jimbo100 · 11 February 2007, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_hairy_bootson

Both options on older and newer cheap TVs. Expensive and newer TVs will have S-Video and RGB and composite. I know composite is inferior to SCART but it just never really caught on here unless you bought a blaunkpunt (not sure on spelling) or another expensive German TV. Even the 1084 monitors sold here didnt have the scart connectors in them.

Your confusing a video connector with a video signal. SCART is just a type of connector. SCART connectors aren't popular in OZ. As for the 1084, there were many sold in Australia that had SCART. I certainly had one that had SCART.

07 February 2007, 17:57	#24
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,408	Out of curiosity, what do they have Oz to connect stuff to the TV? Just composite or RF? P.S. It's not me that is thinking of making them, it's PEnemy. If he wanted to make a single PCB with the ability to put a either a 23-pin D connector OR a SCART connector that is feasible. I recommend against making two different PCB's or putting both connectors on and just "wiring" them together. Last edited by alexh; 07 February 2007 at 18:03.

07 February 2007, 18:05	#26
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,408	D'oh! I take it back, I thought the video DAC's were inside the custom chips. http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/haynie/c...a/lisaspec.pdf Ah... I see a gotcha too. You need to also connect to the Alice chip too (or the 23-pin video connector) as not all the signals (Sync) are available on the Lisa! We need to find a new low cost ASIC scandoubler/FF that has a 24-bit input.... Otherwise you'd have to do the design yourself and use an FPGA with enough block-RAM to hold a field of data (About 700Kbytes) or you'll have to add external DRAM and before you know it you'll have re-invented the FlickerMagic T Last edited by alexh; 07 February 2007 at 18:16.

07 February 2007, 23:05	#34
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,408	Component isnt analog RGB it is analog "colour difference". It's a totally different colourspace model. Conversion is not possible without digital electronics. 23-pin D connectors are easy to source and are about $0.70 each (which I guess isnt that cheap but hey) Last edited by alexh; 07 February 2007 at 23:10.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Where can I buy a flickerfixer/scandoubler?	mange_lars	support.Hardware	5	28 September 2010 08:36
ScanDoubler + FlickerFixer	Test Driver	MarketPlace	6	15 September 2009 00:23
MV 1200 Scandoubler/flickerfixer repairs	Dave_wb	support.Hardware	2	31 July 2009 19:24
LCD TV or Flickerfixer / Scandoubler	olas	support.Hardware	91	23 April 2008 14:45
scandoubler flickerfixer blues	Dave_wb	support.Hardware	5	13 December 2007 16:11

07 February 2007, 19:19	#30
Smiley Amiga-less! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,350	I would probably get one for my A600 if it was small enough not to hang 10cm out the back

07 February 2007, 20:44	#32
Olecranon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin - USA Age: 56 Posts: 86	Interesting. I was actually thinking about this topic earlier today and made a post on Amigaworld. I'll just Cut&paste it here. Pretty much every HDTV in existance contains a flicker fixer(scandoubler/deinterlacer). It seems like it should be an easy matter to make a cheap flicker fixer for any amiga. I've read that the 23 pin D-Sub connectors are hard to find? Couldn't something that plugs into the denise chip be easy to make? $170 for an external toastscan seems ridiculous. Even a cheap device that outputs S-Video would be useful. Component video would be even better. My old DVD player outputs 480I (interlace) via component. My panasonic plasma TV then takes the 480I signal and converts it to 720P (native resolution). In effect, acting as a deinterlacer/scandoubler. I live in the US, so SCART is pretty useless here. The only reason I can see for needing a scandoubler/deinterlacer for your x-box, x-box 360, ps2, or ps3 would be to connect it to a computer monitor. I'm not sure why anyone would do that? Most people would rather play on a larger TV screen than even a 21" LCD Flat panel. You dont need a scandoubler/deinterlacer to play your xbox/xbox360/ps2/ps3 on a HDTV. You can get a cheap component, DVI, or HDMI cable to connect it to your TV and let your TV do the flicker fixing. An HDTV will even upconvert S-VIDEO to it's native resolution.

07 February 2007, 23:02	#33
Olecranon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin - USA Age: 56 Posts: 86	This brings me to one final question. Component is basically an analog RGB signal. Would it be possible to custom wire a cable from the Amiga 23 pin RGB connector to a standard Y'PbPr Analog Component Video without any electronics?

07 February 2007, 23:32	#36
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	Why the hell would a TV take 480i through component? What's the point?

08 February 2007, 11:05	#38
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	Cheers, does shed some light on why you'd use component interlaced. Just never really thought about it as I figured there wouldn't be anything with component outputs that doesn't already output in 480p. Forgot that progressive scan players can still output in 480i. Still, just the same as using RGB scart really. (Apart from the availability outside of EUR)

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)