Perfect LCD monitor for use with AMiGA

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by killergorilla

Well some games such as Pinball Illusions and Project-X don't fit within 320x256 so will not fit within the display properly.

They are Overscan games aren't they? Like Double Dragon 2

[killergorilla]

Yeah they're overscan games.

[OddbOd]

The problem is that you are only looking at the display aspect and ignoring the fact that the Amiga's video output is designed for TV-like displays where the pixel aspect ratio differs (approx 1+(20/3):1) from that of all modern PC displays (exactly 1:1).

To be perfectly frank laser is just being picky, there is no such thing as a perfect image because you cannot compensate for all the differences between LCDs and Amiga monitors/conventional CRT TVs, even on the original hardware there were variations (those v-size and h-size controls were there for a reason). Using 1280x1024 to present a 640x512 is perfectly valid despite strictly being incorrect because it is the native resolution of many 4:3 LCDs and maps the emulated Amiga's display to the PC's monitor without resorting to unsightly stretching.

Debate is pointless as none of us will ever truly be right, if a circle on-screen is round (or close enough) then you've done the best you can.

@killergorilla: That's a poor counter-argument as the amount of overscan displayed by one TV/monitor can differ greatly to any other and has gradually decreased over the years, manufacturers knew this (which is why they included sizing controls) and Amiga knew this (which is why Workbench includes overscan control).

[killergorilla]

It wasn't a counter argument.

I was just raising a point.

I don't have an LCD to test it on but what is Project-X going to look like on a screen setup 1280x1024?

[Calgor]

@killergorilla

I imagine it should look okay if the LCD monitor has good scaling hardware that would scale the e.g. 720x568 resolution image up to 1280x1024. I use my laptop to run that resolution for winuae full screen on a 1024x768 screen and the nvidia gfx card does an okay (better than ati) job of scaling up.

If anyone knows of:
- 19/21inch 4:3 LCD 1280x1024 monitor
- inputs RGB SCART, VGA, SVideo, composite
- 50/60Hz and double to 100/120Hz, with range of 50-120Hz
- Option to scale to full screen or do no scaling.
- Fast ms refresh rate for no blur of moving objects

Would that not be the ultimate LCD monitor for the amiga?
I myself use a 19inch CRT because I know of no such LCD monitor.

[OddbOd]

Originally Posted by killergorilla

It wasn't a counter argument.

I was just raising a point.

Yeah I know, I didn't mean to come off sounding aggressive.

Originally Posted by killergorilla

I don't have an LCD to test it on but what is Project-X going to look like on a screen setup 1280x1024?

It looks good and fills the screen right to the edges, while it's true that some of the overscan area is not visible nothing significant is cut off. I think what we've got to remember is that the programmers were smart guys, they knew full well to keep things like the score/weapons display inside the screen's "safe area" but also to avoid leaving black borders on all but the most maladjusted of displays. I can try photographing my monitor with it running Project-X if you would like.

Calgor, please read this explanation about video timings as I think you have been misled with regard to how 720px wide video and 640px video fill the same physical screen area. I'm not sure if the ideal monitor you describe actually exists but there are many that are pretty close, the scaling and scan doubling will be the major stumbling blocks.

[Sune Salminen]

PAL versions of Typhoon Thompson and Nebulus for example don't fill up the screen on a 4:3 monitor or television on a real Amiga.

I imagine those games could look pretty good on a widescreen LCD monitor - that is, if the monitor had any kind of picture position controls. Then you could adjust it to use almost (I say almost because I don't think those games are quite 16:9) the whole screen area for games like that.

Of course panning and positional controls probably aren't a common feature..

[Calgor]

Originally Posted by OddbOd

Calgor, please read this explanation about video timings as I think you have been misled with regard to how 720px wide video and 640px video fill the same physical screen area. I'm not sure if the ideal monitor you describe actually exists but there are many that are pretty close, the scaling and scan doubling will be the major stumbling blocks.

Thanks for the great link, which is very relevant for the amiga.

I suppose how it displays overscan on the LCD depends how it converts the signal and may be a different amount of overscan for different LCD TVs? I imagine most would display the same amount of overscan or follow the standard for DVDs referred to in the link (i.e. 704/720 instead of the amiga's greater number).

Are you saying that on an LCD screen that the resolution displayed for a PAL screen will be greater than 640x512 and include some overscan area by default? I don't have an LCD TV so I cannot check this out.

EDIT: Sune's post seems to suggest that yes, some overscan area is shown, in which case, the higher the resolution (for smoother scaling) rather than 1280x1024 would be better?

All picture modes are using my Scart cable, and I haven´t noticed
any problems with aspect rations, 640x512 and 640x256 are very
good in 4:3 mode and 1280x512 is better in 16:9 mode.

All interlaced mode are not blinking, but there is a problem during scrolling,
or moving windows, but IT IS not a problem because AMiGA games
are mostly in 320x256 modes, in which picture is very stable.

So that´s why I consider this monitor the best display for AMiGA
I have ever seen!

[OddbOd]

Even if there is some aspect ratio distortion you wouldn't notice it because the difference in pixel aspect is very small on top of the fact that the monitor you have chosen is designed to be used as a television i.e. the monitor's internal scaler is able to compensate for the difference. In my opinion it is an excellent choice for native Amiga use precisely because of it's design as a TV monitor not just a PC display.

@Calgor: The title's Sune points to do not fill even the 640x512 PAL "safe area" (I am borrowing this term from DVD nomenclature, it does not fit the situation perfectly), his (her?) point was that you can magnify those games to fill more of a widescreen display than you can with a game that entirely fills the "safe area" i.e. the vertical letterboxing will not be as extreme. Since you seem to have taken on my basic point that the 640x512 area in the centre will always be visible despite different displays showing slightly different screen areas I'll leave you to read further on your own.

[Sune Salminen]

Originally Posted by OddbOd

his point was that you can magnify those games to fill more of a widescreen display than you can with a game that entirely fills the "safe area" i.e. the vertical letterboxing will not be as extreme.

Yes that's exactly what I meant, thanks for clarifying.

The games I mentioned don't take up the entire vertical space on a 4:3 screen.

[heavy]

are LCD monitors compatible with old 320x256 mode (games/demos) ?

[OddbOd]

Yes and no

On a TV monitor such as the one TherioN has it will display fine, the signal generated by the Amiga video hardware was intended to be output to a display with the characteristics of a television set the hardware scaler inside the display takes care of the rest. How good it will appear is another matter.

On a monitor designed only for use with a PC it depends on the exact capabilities of the monitor, most perform poorly and some will not display low resolution modes at all, I would expect 320x256@50Hz to fail on most (if not all) modern LCD monitors even when using a scan-doubler. At low resolutions a CRT or emulator employing simple software scaling (i.e. WinUAE at 4x horizontal and vertical null scaling on a native 1280x1024 LCD) will undoubtedly look better, that is subjectively speaking.

I have played Project X yesterday on my Samsung 225MW and
there was whole picture. I will post picture of it later.

[Huezo]

Is this non-flicker a feature of every LCD or just this one?

Must try with BenQ W100 projector - oh damn its DLP.

[OddbOd]

No it doesn't apply to all LCDs only to TV monitors. Your projector has composite and s-video inputs so I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work, the deciding factor is not the display technology used (TFT,DLP,OLED etc) but whether the display's video processor can handle analog TV signals or not.

[Huezo]

Well my 10 years old Sony Trinitron TV can not handle analog TV signals then as it flickers.. =)
..or is this non-flickering about how the certain type of screen refreshes itself?

[OddbOd]

Actually your old Sony does flicker it's just not noticeable as with natural motion images as it is with computer generated video The lack of flicker on LCD TV monitors is simply because they are not interlaced displays, when given an interlaced signal the internal video processor converts it to progressive. It's worth noting that just because the flicker is eliminated this does not reduce the combing (aka interlace fringing) effect that can be seen by feeding an interlaced Workbench display to your TV and then moving a window horizontally, even a hardware scan-doubler/flicker-fixer does not eliminate this type of artifacting.

[Paradroid90]

Need some help again guys!!!!!

Got myself a LCD TV from E Buyer and cannot get a VGA picture through an adaptor. What is the best monitor driver to use in this situation.

If it works cracking price £99

Thanks

Para

[Jope]

For workbench, try installing the vgaonly and dblntsc monitors, then select one of the dblntsc screenmodes in screenmode prefs.

If you get that working, try installing dblpal as well and seeing if the TV can sync down to 50Hz through the vga port.

You might have to use SCART only for Amiga use.