Join the Vampire / Aros 68k - Team

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Photon

So why the poll 3.1 / Aros ?

I like the very fast Vampire 2, and want to buy one for my A600, after plane tickets and hotel are paid for for a famous demoparty in Germany... You have asked me if I can help with software, and I answered tentatively as I have a few projects running on top of my job.

But contact me after Revision 2016, and let's see what we can do

sounds good

I will come back to it

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Dunny

That's... disappointingly slow. What CPU are you running with your 137MB of RAM?

The point of all this is that for AROS to become a viable kickstart/workbench replacement then it needs to be able to run on original hardware.

That means that it must perform as fast as an original A1200 (68EC020, 2MB Chipram) running WB3.1. I think we can safely discount the 68k/1.3 comparison.

If it runs at the same speed as the original A1200, but with a Vampire attached then what's the point of having the Vampire? Might as well run vanilla 3.1.

I suspect that AROS is trying to do things that the original hardware couldn't do without assistance - 256 colour screens (or higher bitdepths), complex icons etc, etc. That's fine, but when given the same resources and assets as an original 3.1 install, it should perform at the same speed or better. Anything less and it's going to get laughed at.

Like I said previously, when I ran AROS on my 486 DX-2/50MHz, it should have flown in comparison to an A1200. It did not; it was so slow that you could count the lines being drawn as it refreshed a window.

I suspect that there are fundamental flaws in the implementation - heavy reliance on oop, poor compiler performance, who knows?

But it needs to get fixed if it's going to deserve the title of "fastest OS in the west", to paraphrase the hype on the AROS website.

First get the compatibility up, then make the ROM fit in 512KB and the OS install in <10MB, then get it running at speed. Only after all that can anyone start to think about improving it.

D.

the compatibility is quiet high... I should know because I propably used and use it more than anyone else and personally have no interest in 3.1 anymore (but that can everyone decide for him/herself)

the main problem is speed on real hardware

your attitude is the typical attitude I experienced in recent years... people are moaning avout the situation, they are asking for advanced features despite knowing that they will never get them on 3.X, they are maoning and asking for open sourcing of 3.X despite knowing that this will never happen. When you are telling them that Aros already this offers but need people to do something and not just sitting in the chair and moaning they tell you "as long as it is not running on unexpanded amigas running as fast as Amiga OS there and include all patches I use I will not install them" then the forum discussion goes on 50 pages and end in nothing until the same questions are raised next time.

If you want something new help to get there, the basic pieces are there what is needed is optimizing components or writing drivers. Even non-programmers can help there by testing or giving feedback. This "chair" mentality lead us to the current situation. Help or be happy with what is there but no more moaning about lack of progress. Regarding 3.1 and Vampire people get 3.1 with it, as far as possible people even get drivers like with the P96 driver developed by one of the Aros devs. Support of new features that go beyond what was current possible will be only there for Aros. You can of course still develop programs that directly hack the hardware.

[Toni Wilen]

This is exactly the reason I normally stay out of these kinds of threads. Useless arguments, no help whatsoever to fix/improve anything at all.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

This is exactly the reason I normally stay out of these kinds of threads. Useless arguments, no help whatsoever to fix/improve anything at all.

at least one has answered constructively...

I just sent you a email

[Samurai_Crow]

Device drivers for AGA and ECS can be written in Assembly to bring the speed up. Those machines won't need cross-platform support. I'm already on the team but can offer some assistance if needed.

[Toni Wilen]

In my opinion biggest problem is planar data getting "lost" inside graphics subsystem and use of routines and algorithms that are not planar friendly.

Using assembly outside of performance critical inner loops does not fix it. One exception is exec task switching and bigger parts of interrupt handling and CIA timers, it is very performance critical part (any time used for housekeeping is time taken from programs) and should be in assembly.

Anyway, I am still not doing anything until compiler is fixed

[wawa]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

In my opinion biggest problem is planar data getting "lost" inside graphics subsystem and use of routines and algorithms that are not planar friendly.

there is more to that. as thor already indicated over at a1k, there is problem with layers. then the uae hidd is too rudimentary, it doesnt seem to notice when the vmem is going out, aros cgx doesnt seem to support swapping memory out the graphics memory to the main memory like p96 does and so on.

Using assembly outside of performance critical inner loops does not fix it. One exception is exec task switching and bigger parts of interrupt handling and CIA timers, it is very performance critical part (any time used for housekeeping is time taken from programs) and should be in assembly.

aros exec is not that bad. time critical parts may be solved by asm inlines within ifdefs. i have timed aros exec function for function in comparison to amiga exec on the same testcases using librarytimer in the past and im going to do it again when necessary.

Anyway, I am still not doing anything until compiler is fixed

so, why you even speak up here? its not in my or olafs expertise field to do that. all i can do is try to replace gcc with vbcc building some small module to see if it even works. then one would probably have to adopt the compiler options to get any advantage of it. then probably parametrizing macros need to be adopted to vbcc.

most of that are things i have not much clue about, but how do you exactly would proceed, step by step?


now, apart of compiler discussion, on practical matter there are my cxurrent priorities:
1. get a4000 (and a600 by the way) ide (ata hidd) working in order to make possible regular testing on these machines. a4k is fine with scsi bus, but in order to have minimal setup and space for expansions like rtg or lan card it would be mandatory. fastata conflicts with too many other zorro cards also on genuine kickstart.

2. get uaehidd to recognize and correctly handle particular pixel formats and restricted vmemory a real rtg card offers. the prefs screenmode should only offer resolutions masked out of what the driver offers on these. the maximal resolutions may be simply calculated from the available ram.

3. get hunk binaries loading as fast as elf.

4. check where exec can be sped up.

5. while that all, port or fix compiling of aros contributions for 68k (i have done number of things in this direction already with tremendous support of deadwood, most notably scalos works, some additional mui classes work, calculator tool works, lunapaint opens but doesnt work correctly yet)

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by wawa

then the uae hidd is too rudimentary, it doesnt seem to notice when the vmem is going out, aros cgx doesnt seem to support swapping memory out the graphics memory to the main memory like p96 does and so on.

It is designed to be like that

I am quite sure no one (except those that have written/have sources of P96 or CGFX) knows how this stuff should work optimally. At least I have no idea. I am not going to guess.

uaehidd was nothing more than to get AROS RTG work with UAE, everything else was bonus. It is as simple as possible.

so, why you even speak up here?

I meant I won't touch anything that needs any kind of non-trivial optimizations until compiler is sorted.

3. get hunk binaries loading as fast as elf.

This is something shouldn't be too difficult. Unless it is side-effect of something more complex..

[wawa]

also what concerns planar modes, they are basically working. what the problem is similarly to rtg is that inmagery is being kept inly in chip memory and cannot be swapped out to fast, basically im talkonh of fblit-like functionality.

[wawa]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

It is designed to be like that

I am quite sure no one (except those that have written/have sources of P96 or CGFX) knows how this stuff should work optimally. At least I have no idea. I am not going to guess.

thor might be consulted on that matter, as on layers one. georg said aomething along going to look at layers v45 documentation (not the sources, they arent open of course), but im not sure whats is it going to help.

uaehidd was nothing more than to get AROS RTG work with UAE, everything else was bonus. It is as simple as possible.

okay. i dont promiss anything, but ill try to think of how the driver limits for a particular card can be implemented in the wrapper.

I meant I won't touch anything that needs any kind of non-trivial optimizations until compiler is sorted.

so again, how to proceed according to your expectations. if possible, step by step please.

This is something shouldn't be too difficult. Unless it is side-effect of something more complex..

but it makes huge difference for the user. i compile my suff without building distro -> without converting the binaries to hunk except arosbootstrap. so aros binaries are loaded almost reasonably fast, while you can observe the delay on amiga hunk ones. the bigger the binary the more difference. you can imagine loading owb, and this makes impact on how aros is considered as replacement.

[Retro1234]

I agree with what someone else said if vampire with Aros runs the same speed as Amiga with OS3.x 020 - vampire no longer has any value ie there is no speed boost anymore = pointless.

and Vampire and Aros are the future hopefully bring thing together.

[wawa]

when igor started his work on vampire, several years ago now, what he has initially achieved was an 68000 decelerator. his card was executing 68k code slower than the genuine 68000 in the a600. people have been laughing at him, insulting, some helped, some gave some hints but rather unwillingly and from a high horse. today vampire si the fastest 68k hardware out there. thanks to stubborness and ccoperation with some other gifted enthusiasts. see the pattern?

[Retro1234]

Originally Posted by wawa

when igor started his work on vampire, several years ago now, what he has initially achieved was an 68000 decelerator. his card was executing 68k code slower than the genuine 68000 in the a600. people have been laughing at him, insulting, some helped, some gave some hints but rather unwillingly and from a high horse. today vampire si the fastest 68k hardware out there. thanks to stubborness and ccoperation with some other gifted enthusiasts. see the pattern?

I like stories like this - im sure someone can sort Aros - maybe 3.x source has some hints

[tomcat666]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

Aros is the future OS for Vampire and the new standalone devices.

Am I the only one that doesn't like that at all AROS to me does not look or feel anything like AmigaOS and to make it even worse it is MUCH slower. I really wanted to buy a vampire2 in the "near" future but after this I don't think I want to anymore.

[Retro1234]

Aros without the extras looks and feels the same as OS3.x

[tomcat666]

Then I have been looking at wrong videos

[wawa]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

maybe 3.x source has some hints

we are not looking at any leaked material. for sure.

[Retro1234]

Originally Posted by wawa

we are not looking at any leaked material. for sure.

Ok

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Aros without the extras looks and feels the same as OS3.x

You must know...

[wawa]

Originally Posted by tomcat666

Am I the only one that doesn't like that at all AROS to me does not look or feel anything like AmigaOS and to make it even worse it is MUCH slower. I really wanted to buy a vampire2 in the "near" future but after this I don't think I want to anymore.

you can buy vampire allright. none will force you to use aros on it.

however if you want some additional functionalities, just to mention being able to push windows out the screen then it would be more consistent to put some work in an open os replacement with available sources instead to patch asm code where you can.

also interesting, what is the difference in aros feel&look in comparison to genuine one? icon set? speaking bhere from a perspective of someone who actually has aros running on amiga hardware since long, not just watching few videos, that were ment to demonstarte flaws.