The Amiga's gaming legacy is pretty amazing when you think about it

[TCD]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Are they really ST original ?

Yes. The ST was the lead platform for the Bitmap Brothers games up to The Chaos Engine.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by TCD

Yes. The ST was the lead platform for the Bitmap Brothers games up to The Chaos Engine.

Well I'm not sure at all. The fact that they were doing ST version alongside Amiga ones doesn't means that the ST version were prioritized.
The very fact that the Bitmap Brothers themselves promote only their Amiga version (including AGA) of their games when they make new edition is a good clue that the ST version wasn't the lead version but rather a downgrade of the Amiga one.

[Megalomaniac]

More people remember the Amiga than the ST, that's why the Bitmaps discuss the Amiga more when attracting nostalgia. Most of their games have all the hallmarks of ST ports, mostly 16 colours, relatively sluggish movement and without smooth horizontal scrolling (the first Speedball feels like you're playing in a corridor as a result)

[DisasterIncarna]

Originally Posted by lionagony

HOL does say Deuteros was an Amiga Original https://amiga.abime.net/games/view/d...ext-millennium

i think there was talk of a lost unreleased pc version at 1 point.

[DisasterIncarna]

Originally Posted by gimbal

"Firstly would the Playstation 5 exist without the Amiga? Psygnosis who rose to fame with the Amiga" - because the Amiga existed at the time. If it hadn't, that does not immediately imply Psygnosis would have never existed, or would have had different ideas about how to design their games.

I do want to believe Psygnosis, not the Amiga, had some part to play in the success of the PS1. For sure. If Psygnosis would have existed without the Amiga... can't say. We don't live in that timeline.

at the least something like lemmings might not have existed without the amiga due to them messing around with deluxe paint and magicing up a game from their shennanigans.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by DisasterIncarna

at the least something like lemmings might not have existed without the amiga due to them messing around with deluxe paint and magicing up a game from their shennanigans.

Isn't it the same with Monkey Island ? The guy.brush becoming Guybrush.
One of the artist of Monkey Island was the woman that made the infamous King Toot of Deluxe Paint III.
Although without the Amiga the game would have existed, but probably without that iconic main character name.

[lionagony]

Originally Posted by TCD

About Psygnosis and the PlayStation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...on_video_games
One could argue that Psygnosis did shape the image of the early PlayStation era, but overall didn't contribute thst much to its success.

I found an interesting newspaper article from the US from Aug 1996 titled "Psygnosis to continue carrying Playstation" which could be interpreted as them contributing very much to their success https://www.newspapers.com/image/158...TxwVPACxwL_j3A

It says Psygnosis is the Playstation's top developer in Europe and in the Top 3 in the US. At that point they say Wipeout and Destruction Derby had both sold over 1 million copies. It's odd that neither are on the Wikipedia list. Maybe Psygnosis were tight lipped about their sales numbers. I know it's hard to get reliable sales numbers for Amiga games.

Either way if we go with the numbers on that list and go back to my original thesis that there might not be a PS5 without the Amiga (which is a longshot) then in the top 32 best sellers you had these with Amiga backgrounds.

Tomb Raider Core Design October 25, 1996 7,100,000
Tomb Raider II Core Design October 31, 1997 6,800,000
Tomb Raider III Core Design November 20, 1998 5,900,000
Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation Core Design 4,700,000
Driver Reflections Interactive GT Interactive 3,220,000
Driver 2 Reflections Interactive Infogrames 2,850,000

Admittedly this argument would have been a lot stronger if I hadn't mistakenly thought that Traveller's Tales invented Crash Bandicoot and didn't just do some later Crash games on the PS2. I added an edit to the original post. But for the PS1 to get established and allow time for big hits like Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy to arrive in 1997 then I think it's not outlandish to think Sony may have struggled without Amiga stalwarts Psygnosis and Core Design laying a strong foundation in 1995 and 1996.

Edit: Just doing some more research and it looks like #6 on that list of top selling PS1 games was Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone by Argonaut Games who helped establish themselves on the Amiga with Starglider, Starglider 2 and Birds of Prey.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by lionagony

Either way if we go with the numbers on that list and go back to my original thesis that there might not be a PS5 without the Amiga (which is a longshot) then in the top 32 best sellers you had these with Amiga backgrounds.
[...]Sony may have struggled without Amiga stalwarts Psygnosis and Core Design laying a strong foundation in 1995 and 1996.

That's all great and good - I mean it, nobody's denying Psygnosis' or Core's success - but all you need to do is look at the other games on this list to put this notion to rest.

Within first year you could play the likes of Tekken, Toshinden, Ridge Racer - this was mind blowing, basically like having an advanced arcade at home. And soon came the likes of Air Combat, Twisted Metal, Crash, Resident Evil etc, further making the 3D revolution affordable to people like me who couldn't afford a PC.

I think these titles did carry Sony quite well

[sokolovic]

Well he have a point because I remember clearly that Wipeout, Destruction Derby and Tomb Raider were the games to have on the PlayStation at the beginning at least in France and probably Europe.
Sony didn't bought Psygnosis for nothing. They were clearly watching the Amiga developpers IMHO because they knew their market was fading.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Well he have a point because I remember clearly that Wipeout, Destruction Derby and Tomb Raider were the games to have on the PlayStation at the beginning at least in France and probably Europe.
Sony didn't bought Psygnosis for nothing. They were clearly watching the Amiga developpers IMHO because they knew their market was fading.

There's a big difference between "there would be no PS5 without Amiga devs" and "Amiga devs made significant contributions to PSX's success".

Tomb Raider came out in Nov 1996, ~2 months before FF7 (and it wasn't even PSX exclusive). If you'd like to insists that Sony survived up to this point only thanks to Wipeout and DD, go for it - after all, on the internet only the most extreme and hyperbolic explanations are allowed.

Sometimes I think the true legacy of Amiga is for its fans never to be happy and always wish for some what-if driven unreachable pie in the sky

[sokolovic]

Dreadnought, I don't think that the Sony survived only thanks to the Amiga but the downfall of the machine helped them to pick up some talented developpers. That's a fact.
And I'm pretty sure that Sony knew that, because they would'nt bought Psygnosis in the first place.
Capcom, Konami and Square were tied to Nintendo and Sega, they had to seek elsewhere.
Thankfully, they brought a bit of japanese excellence to developpers that weren't acostumed of this and helped them to transcend themselves.

They made what Commodore didn't made in a nutshell.

[sokolovic]

And above Sony, the fact is also that among the greatest developping houses of the world in 2023, there is quite some that are Amiga related :
Electronic Arts, DICE, Rockstar North, Blizzard, Bethesda, Travellers Tale, Team17....

That doesn't means that without the Amiga they would'nt exist of course. And probably they still existing thanks to the PlayStation.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Dreadnought, I don't think that the Sony survived only thanks to the Amiga but the downfall of the machine helped them to pick up some talented developpers. That's a fact.

Again, I'm not disputing that, just responding to lionagony's more far-fetched theories.

[lionagony]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Again, I'm not disputing that, just responding to lionagony's more far-fetched theories.

I did say in the original post "Obviously this is just speculation and many of the Japanese companies had great games that might have had the PS1 be a success regardless but it's intriguing to think about." I'm definitely not saying that for sure without the Amiga there would be no Playstation but I can envision some multiverses where that could be true I'm sure nobody in Sony headquarters in Japan or the US etc. have ever or will ever acknowledge how much the Amiga meant to their success so in this little corner of the internet I would like to.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by lionagony

I'm definitely not saying that for sure without the Amiga there would be no Playstation but I can envision some multiverses where that could be true

Well, multiverses are supposed to be infinite, so there certainly is one in which this has happened

[sokolovic]

As an Amiga fan I can say at least for me that I bought a PlayStation around 1995 because it seemed to me that it was a bit of an Amiga continuation, gaming field, plus the obviously japanese touch (everything the CD32 wasn't in fact).

I even remember that some warez games had Amiga style intros.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

As an Amiga fan I can say at least for me that I bought a PlayStation around 1995 because it seemed to me that it was a bit of an Amiga continuation...

I bought a PlayStation solely to play Tomb Raider (much cheaper than getting a PC with the required specs), and so did my brother. I bet we weren't the only ones.

Without the Amiga I don't think Psygnosis would had such a good reputation and Sony would have been less interested in acquiring them. That would not have been good for the PlayStation.

But here's the weird bit - if Commodore had been more competent and produced machines that outshone PCs and consoles, Sony might not have produced a gaming console at all! (most of their executives were against it). Certainly the lack of Amiga presence in 1995 helped the PlayStation. So Commodore leaving a 'legacy' by going bankrupt in 1994 was a good thing (for Sony).

[AestheticDebris]

Psygnosis was born from the remnants of Imagine, Core Design came from Gremlin Graphics. And Rare came from Ultimate. They, and many more, software houses came from the thriving games industry in the UK born on the 8-bit systems and it's where a great many Devs cut their teeth. The Amiga and ST certainly played a part in advancing their talents, but I don't really think taking away one of those platforms would've made an enormous difference to where things ultimately lead. The push for "computer literacy" in the 80s, just as computers became affordable,is really what created a melting pot of talent that fed into the industry for years to come.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

Psygnosis was born from the remnants of Imagine, Core Design came from Gremlin Graphics. And Rare came from Ultimate. They, and many more, software houses came from the thriving games industry in the UK born on the 8-bit systems and it's where a great many Devs cut their teeth. The Amiga and ST certainly played a part in advancing their talents, but I don't really think taking away one of those platforms would've made an enormous difference to where things ultimately lead. The push for "computer literacy" in the 80s, just as computers became affordable,is really what created a melting pot of talent that fed into the industry for years to come.

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

Psygnosis was born from the remnants of Imagine, Core Design came from Gremlin Graphics. And Rare came from Ultimate. They, and many more, software houses came from the thriving games industry in the UK born on the 8-bit systems and it's where a great many Devs cut their teeth. The Amiga and ST certainly played a part in advancing their talents, but I don't really think taking away one of those platforms would've made an enormous difference to where things ultimately lead. The push for "computer literacy" in the 80s, just as computers became affordable,is really what created a melting pot of talent that fed into the industry for years to come.

Without the Amiga and ST, 8-bit developers would have potentially had to either go straight to the PC, which was ill-suited to pure 2D action games until much much later, or to the consoles, where licensing fees and restrictive contracts would limit opportunities for originality and invention - look what happened to Sensible when they tried to do an 18-rated game later. I do wonder how useful the educational system was in producing programmers - it may have sparked the interest, but was certainly no help in actually getting into the industry until much later. Besides, global megahits like Lemmings, Sensible Soccer, Worms and Championship Manager originated on the Amiga from programmers with no previous development experience.