NeoGeo Metal Slug conversion to Amiga 500 - madman task ;-) - Page 19

Samurai_Crow · 05 March 2019, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steril707

I am not sure how that is relevant to a Metal Slug conversion for OCS since we don't have fast RAM there. And neither on AGA.

Two words: frame rate.

mcgeezer · 05 March 2019, 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

With aga is possible to use that huge sprites and have tree layers if you use dualplayfield.

So what are you going to use for the actual player and enemy sprites?

Tigerskunk · 05 March 2019, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Two words: frame rate.

Everybody knows that fast RAM is faster than chip. That's why it's called fast RAM, I guess...

Who cares? We are working with stock machines and beggars cannot be chosers.

ross · 05 March 2019, 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by roondar

maybe the beamcontrol registers of ECS can be used to make this a 'full screen' experience (albeit still at 256*192). I am certainly no expert in setting these, but as I understand it they give you control over the sync/number of lines/etc setting of the output screen.

Hi roondar, short response: if you're looking for trouble then toy with beamcontrol registers

Problem here is that pixel clock is fixed (unlike some consoles that can modify it).
So if you change h-slot numbers or vertical lines then you change video frequency. Simply the monitor doesn't sync anymore.
Maybe with some little changes from the defaults it'll continue to work for you, but on that of others?
The only viable possibility is to go from 50Hz to 60Hz but no more (in any case is not a real NTSC but a PAL60, the bus clock does not change..).

Many many years ago I experimented a lot with those registers (on AGA), I also had a multisync monitor, but in the end I even managed to break it

Samurai_Crow · 05 March 2019, 17:43

Someone should conclude that development of any game in this day and age is a fool's errand without fast RAM.

mcgeezer · 05 March 2019, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Someone should conclude that development of any game in this day and age is a fool's errand without fast RAM.

Oh I'm not so sure about that.

ross · 05 March 2019, 17:47

And a word about the 'third layer' made of sprite on AGA: although it is technically feasible to have a 'free form' one in 15 colors, is really difficult to manage and subjected to severe limitations (and they use a flood of DMA).

As suggested by Geezer it is much better to use these huge sprites for moving objects on screen.
Or make a 4-colors sprites layer, with copper gradient, and use the rest for other on-screen covers/bullets.

My 2 cents.

meynaf · 05 March 2019, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Someone should conclude that development of any game in this day and age is a fool's errand without fast RAM.

Any game maybe not, but this one certainly.

roondar · 05 March 2019, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ross

Hi roondar, short response: if you're looking for trouble then toy with beamcontrol registers

Problem here is that pixel clock is fixed (unlike some consoles that can modify it).
So if you change h-slot numbers or vertical lines then you change video frequency. Simply the monitor doesn't sync anymore.
Maybe with some little changes from the defaults it'll continue to work for you, but on that of others?
The only viable possibility is to go from 50Hz to 60Hz but no more (in any case is not a real NTSC but a PAL60, the bus clock does not change..).

Many many years ago I experimented a lot with those registers (on AGA), I also had a multisync monitor, but in the end I even managed to break it

Ah, this does explain why no one used them under AGA to create a 256 pixel wide (but full screen wide) mode. Thanks for the info, I had suspected something was up so it's nice to know what that something is!

--
A word on AGA sprites here: using them in 32 or 64 pixel wide mode is difficult to combine with the higher fetch modes*. It's definitely possible to compromise here (see for instance what mcgeezer does in Rygar AGA), but doing so means your display starts to shift to the right by either 32 or 64 pixels - if you also want to scroll.

AGA sprites are in many ways a real shame - the bus bandwidth improvements for bitplanes (which are what you really, really want to use for the Blitter & CPU) mean that a standard scrolling screen loses most or even all of them. I'm still wondering what the <insert nasty word here> Commodore were thinking when they put this in. More so because AGA sprites are by far the best way to generate big objects. Commodore must have known this and they still didn't try to fix it. The DMA bandwidth is there to allow for it to be fixed. Bah, now I'm back to disliking AGA again...

That said, if the A500 idea is no switched to an A1200 version, I'd do everything I could to get those sprites in - they're so much less impactful on system DMA load than the Blitter it's downright silly how many cycles you save!

*) Actually it's also difficult to do for 16 pixel wide sprites, but that's kinda besides the point given we're talking about using them as wider sprites

Tigerskunk · 05 March 2019, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

Oh I'm not so sure about that.

Seems we are fools, Geezer.

ross · 05 March 2019, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steril707

Seems we are fools, Geezer.

Wait! Are not we all fools here?
If not, then I'm in the wrong board..

(pre-added a

to avoid an edit

)

mcgeezer · 05 March 2019, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steril707

Seems we are fools, Geezer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ross

Wait! Are not we all fools here?
If not, then I'm in the wrong board..

(pre-added a

to avoid an edit

)

I think a fool is taking it a bit too far.

I think a more accurate analysis of myself would be to say that I'm completely fucking nuts

(Not quite on the nuts level of Sandruzzo though

)

sandruzzo · 05 March 2019, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

(Not quite on the nuts level of Sandruzzo though

)

Be my guess!

Tigerskunk · 05 March 2019, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

be my guess!

:d

roondar · 05 March 2019, 22:23

I prefer the term almonds myself, or walnuts in a pinch

sandruzzo · 06 March 2019, 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

So what are you going to use for the actual player and enemy sprites?

Just an Idea: one layer for parallax(speites hw?), one for background, and one for player and enemies.

Tigerskunk · 06 March 2019, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

Just an Idea: one layer for parallax(speites hw?), one for background, and one for player and enemies.

You could do a graphical mockup for explaining and showing how the game would and could look like.

I, for one, think that the BOBs would look a bit too samey with only 7 colours to choose from.

sandruzzo · 06 March 2019, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steril707

You could do a graphical mockup for explaining and showing how the game would and could look like.

I, for one, think that the BOBs would look a bit too samey with only 7 colours to choose from.

On Aga I meant. With 2 interlaced pic you can allmost have 16 colors

Tigerskunk · 06 March 2019, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

On Aga I meant.

Ah okay. That makes more sense.

Maybe you should do a POC for your interlace idea. I don't think it would work too well.

sandruzzo · 06 March 2019, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steril707

Ah okay. That makes more sense.

Maybe you should do a POC for your interlace idea. I don't think it would work too well.

I can Arrange an .exe that load 2 pic raw plus palette to work with

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05 March 2019, 17:43	#365
Samurai_Crow Total Chaos forever! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Waterville, MN, USA Age: 49 Posts: 2,200	Someone should conclude that development of any game in this day and age is a fool's errand without fast RAM.

05 March 2019, 17:47	#367
ross Defendit numerus Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Crossing the Rubicon Age: 54 Posts: 4,491	And a word about the 'third layer' made of sprite on AGA: although it is technically feasible to have a 'free form' one in 15 colors, is really difficult to manage and subjected to severe limitations (and they use a flood of DMA). As suggested by Geezer it is much better to use these huge sprites for moving objects on screen. Or make a 4-colors sprites layer, with copper gradient, and use the rest for other on-screen covers/bullets. My 2 cents.

05 March 2019, 22:23	#375
roondar Registered User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,436	I prefer the term almonds myself, or walnuts in a pinch

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