18 April 2024, 16:27 | #3701 | |
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Pretty much the only way that works is to maintain a palettized version elsewhere and re-render it on every frame, recalculating Copper changes as you do. Not ideal from a performance perspective though. |
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18 April 2024, 16:40 | #3702 | |||||||||
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SNES is known to have packed pixels via Mode 7 and Mode 7 Direct Color and officially supported math accelerator addons via various DSPs and RISC CPU(SuperFX). My argument's position wouldn't change if I substituted the PC for SNES with officially supported math accelerator addons i.e. it is still Commodore UK's officially supported upgraded AGA platform baseline argument which Ali rejected. Quote:
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When there's a compatibility target, it depends on the price and the majority of use cases e.g. games. Quote:
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8514's pro app desktop use case is not in this topic i.e. read the 1st post. Quote:
My argument for the A1200 is to improve CPU power i.e. Commodore UK MD's argument. My argument for the ET4000 class chipset for the PC is against slow VGAs which is a bottleneck for gaming. Quote:
How come Commodore's AGA aimed at 256 color display like PC's VGA 256 color display baseline? Quote:
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8514's pro app desktop use case is not in this topic i.e. read the 1st post. Amiga's 2D hardware acceleration is a decelerator in certain situations since AGA's Blitter is stuck in 1985. Aminet has many different hacks to enhance the graphics speed e.g. fastblit, cpublit, cpuclr, etc. Using Fast RAM with fast 68K CPUs. https://amitopia.com/check-out-this-fblit-alternative/ https://www.powerprograms.nl/amiga/cpu-blit-assist.html For A1200, the 68EC020 CPU assists the Blitter. For 32x32 bobs A500 Blitter has 11 Bobs per PAL frame. A1200 Blitter has 17 Bobs per PAL frame. A1200's gimped 68EC020 CPU has 8 Bobs per PAL frame, 49.7% of A1200 Blitter. A1200 CPU+Blitter (optimized) has 19 Bobs per PAL frame. What happens when the CPU is 68EC020-25 with Fast RAM? PS; both 68EC020 and 80386 have hardware barrel shifters. WD90C31 has acceleration. OTI-087 has acceleration. Last edited by hammer; 18 April 2024 at 19:37. |
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18 April 2024, 16:59 | #3703 |
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Hammer - you're just doing nonsense comparison... you want good 2D? You already have it in AAA - everything is faster. A lot faster memory, much more memory, more DMA channels, wider blitter and copper and also slightly improved copper instruction set iirc. Why the f... you are spamming all that PC VGA nonsense? Once 3D PCI came out it essentially killed off all old 2D companies like Oak tech, tseng or cirrus. So it was irrelevant to what A1200 in 92 could have... It could've be AAA and I wouldn't be crying about that, and certainly I would not compare it to the VGA cards which did cost almost as much as whole A1200...
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18 April 2024, 18:51 | #3704 | ||||
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The rot in the Amiga gaming scene started in Q1 1992 e.g. A600's release and the sales flop. For AAA; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanc...ecture_chipset The chipset would include up to 1 million transistors in its 64-bit dual-system configuration (total). 64-bit AAA has a similar transistor budget as Amiga's Hombre. AAA is 2D focus while Hombre is 3D focus. Quote:
The whole point of dumping IBM MCA is access to lower-cost add-on cards! Did you assume I cared about these AIB/chipset companies when I dropped them on the next Xmas or next post-Xmas or next black Friday sales? Quote:
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S3 didn't even bother targeting 8514's compatibility. Only a fool thinks that AGA's "hardware acceleration" is on par with PC SVGA chipsets that powered Amiga's RTG cards. 8514 and VGA only established the use cases for SVGA cloners. Last edited by hammer; 18 April 2024 at 19:44. |
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18 April 2024, 19:02 | #3705 | |
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18 April 2024, 21:01 | #3706 | |||||||
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So stay on topic and stop flooding us with unrelated and usually misleading random info's about Tseng, Sharp, Intel, NVidia etc. Stay on topic. Quote:
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And IBM never released officially 8514 low level - register documentation. Officially known 8514 register documentation is from MIPS so obviously some documentation was known - whether it is outcome of cloning or leaks or official but secret (NDA) release - who cares after so many years and absence of MCA in Amiga. This is completely unrelated to this topic. How this is related to Amiga 1200? Quote:
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Don't put words in my mouth. You're misleading. Ok, let's assume you are right and i'm not, list those "some acceleration features" in ET4000. Quote:
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I think there is no single person in this thread claiming anything else - of course having more memory, faster CPU will be better. Wow... thx for this information so important from this topic perspective... Btw as i didn't verified this earlier but my memory was correct OAK OTI087 has no acceleration beside to some registers to speedup CPU driven pattern fill in packed pixel modes - i've recalled correctly that it was quite standard, average SVGA card, so... usually you provide misleading information. Last edited by pandy71; 18 April 2024 at 22:30. |
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18 April 2024, 21:12 | #3707 |
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Was anyone else disappointed by the ET4000 ?
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18 April 2024, 21:39 | #3708 |
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Was anyone disappointed with their most recent PC purchase? Was it really a noticeable advancement and have the 'wow factor' over your old PC that your used just a few years ago?
My opinion is there has been no noticeable improvement for a quarter of a century now. Or is it me? They still play videos full screen, and 3D games full screen, still same looking OS GUI etc. Am I missing something? The last time I was impressed with any computer was when as a family we purchased our first PC in 1999 with dial-up and a 15" monitor, with 24 bit graphics, 8GB hard drive, all at a blazing 466 MHz. Prior to that I had an A1200 attached to a tv with 8MB RAM, a 260MB hard drive and a SCSI CD-Rom drive. |
18 April 2024, 21:58 | #3709 |
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Absolutely not.
25 years? Yeah, it's you. The difference between a very high end 25 year old peecee and even a 10 year old low end peecee is enormous. Current stuff isn't comparable in any way, shape or form. It's all so far beyond what was available 25 years ago. |
18 April 2024, 22:19 | #3710 | ||
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Not really, but I haven't purchased a PC recently. Actually, I do not even own a desktop or tower these days. It's laptops now, and I'm writing this on a mobile workstation that is more powerful than my last PC. It is an old pre-owned laptop, but still quite good.
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So, I would say, it depends. The office PC is "good enough", and there is not much progression. Laptops quite similar, only useless evolution (slimmer, but less usable, less connectivity, more eye-candy than productivity). High-end, server side: I would disagree that there is no evolution. Quote:
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18 April 2024, 22:44 | #3711 |
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Last computer i bought that felt 'Impressive' to me was my AMD 3950X with 128GB memory.
With that amount of memory i could finally run complex transaction and data streaming applications i work on, locally with a full Kubernetes, Kafka and Postgres DB setup all in their own paravirtualized VM's and with enough performance to run full production datasets. I suddenly had a mini-Datacenter in my desktop...It's since been replaced with a TR4 machine which is much bigger but that felt like an incremental increase, not opening up new posibilities. ....And yes i cried when i bought 128GB of DDR in 2020. |
19 April 2024, 01:47 | #3712 |
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19 April 2024, 03:32 | #3713 |
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My most recent PC purchase exposed me to Windows 11, so yes, I was incredibly, incredibly disappointed. Now, every PC purchase is disappointing, but from a UX perspective W11 is actually worse than XP. Is it deliberately hostile, a product of industrial sabotage, or just an absolutely mind boggling showcase of incompetence? An unholy trifecta, perhaps.
As for raw hardware performance I don't think I'd need anything faster than 2014 mid-low specs for the stuff I do. Best advancements are in temps and sound level. That stuff becomes obvious once you go back and boot up a 1999 machine, like a Dell or G4 mac. Boot times were great in the Amiga/8bit/16bit days, then got abysmal with W95/98, and now they're at least tolerable. My A1200+ 2.5"Conner on IDE booted to desktop in a few seconds and installed programs started instantly. Last edited by Arne; 19 April 2024 at 03:38. |
19 April 2024, 04:20 | #3714 |
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My new PC is significantly faster at processing images than the one I had before. Windows 11 is a pretty horrible UI experience indeed, but performance isn't impacted (too much) by it. I wouldn't call it a 'wow factor', but upgrading my PC did improve a number of tasks that I do on a nearly daily basis.
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19 April 2024, 05:01 | #3715 |
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I don't recall I've ever been disappointed with my PC purchases. That's because I'm on a rather tight budget (ok, maybe recently not so tight as before) and always plan my moves very carefully.
I know people love to say things like "well, my 10 year old GPU and CPU are still going strong!", and that's fine if you do some simple desktop things or play the same old games, but if you want to stay near the top - especially in gaming - there's no way around upgrades. I do it every few years and, yeah, it still has the wow factor, though of course nowhere near as big as back in the day (which is rather obvious). Note about Win 11 - it's not mandatory, but if you really must have it changing the UI with 3rd party programs is banally simple. |
19 April 2024, 05:59 | #3716 | |
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Read https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...postcount=3516 Pandy71 started PC addon vs PC addon. PC vs PC is NOT my argument! My response post against Pandy71's #3516 is https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...postcount=3520 I attempted to restore the debate back to gaming i.e. Doom game benchmarks. IBM 8514 and clones are nothing for PC DOS VGA gaming. ------------------ http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahi...ggebrecht.html Lew Eggebrecht, Vice President of Engineering at Commodore. Lew Eggebrecht: We do get squeezed with clone PCs at the top and Sega underneath, and also boxes like 3D0, Lew Eggebrecht: "We can't make that decision right now - it's something we'll have to look at but in that time frame, even in the low end, every machine is likely to have a DSP. It's a cost thing - although the AT&T chip itself is only $20 to $30 or so. AT&T has a number of lower cost options, as well, that are designed more specifically to go on the motherboard ------ DSP3210 has a $20 to $30 price range and it's in the game plan, but Commodore runs out of time and money. Lew Eggebrech is open for Nintendo-style officially supported DSP for ALL Amigas. It's too bad Eggebrech was not in the hot seat earlier in the 1988 time frame. Lew Eggebrech is better than Bill Sydnes. ------- http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahistory/mikesinz.html From Mike Sinz (Commodore) AT&T DSP32 selection was to speed up render times in a low-cost method, not just audio processing. Eggebrech and engineers agreed with AT&T DSP32 selection. Dave Hydnie is correct about bundling AT&T DSP32 with AGA as the complete solution for the AGA(AA) generation. A1200/CD32 with AGA-DSP32 complete solution would have blown away any 386DX-40 and 486DX-33 PC competition. DSP32 being a RISC core in design, the RISC threat is real. In modern times, PiStorm32-Emu68's low-cost RISC is a good direction for my A1200. Since A1200 is not being manufactured, I prefer FPGA SAGA with PiStorm support i.e. retro clone with a forward road map. Last edited by hammer; 19 April 2024 at 06:43. |
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19 April 2024, 06:14 | #3717 | ||
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One thing's for sure though - if you want that graphics coming out of your Amiga's video ports (composite/RGB) then it has to go through ChipRAM and bandwidth becomes critical. If it's doing something else (eg. using the Pi's HDMI output) then that is indeed a 'horse of a different color' - and not a fair comparison. "This system from 2012 is faster than one from a decade earlier, therefore I was disappointed with the A1200" is not just an invalid argument, it's historical revisionism. Nobody back was dissing the A1200 for not being up to the standard of something that wouldn't exist until well into the 21st century. Quote:
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19 April 2024, 06:22 | #3718 |
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19 April 2024, 07:30 | #3719 | ||||||||||
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You started PC addon vs PC addon. PC vs PC is NOT my argument! Quote:
TheA500mini has reached mainstream brick-and-mortar stores in Australia. https://medium.com/@scottdaniel_2089...-ff5c90ddde85# The Rise of Retro Gaming: Nostalgia in the Digital Age Quote:
PC has a strong 256-color use case. Amiga's 2D acceleration becomes de-acceleration with fast 32-bit 68K. You're a fool to compare Amiga's 2D acceleration with the SVGA chipsets that enable Amiga's RTG. --------------- Lew Eggebrecht: "We can't make that decision right now - it's something we'll have to look at but in that time frame, even in the low end, every machine is likely to have a DSP. It's a cost thing - although the AT&T chip itself is only $20 to $30 or so. AT&T has a number of lower cost options, as well, that are designed more specifically to go on the motherboard DSP3210 has a $20 to $30 price range and it's in the game plan, but Commodore runs out of time and money. Lew Eggebrech is open for Nintendo-style officially supported DSP for ALL Amigas including low-end Amigas. It's too bad Eggebrech was not in the hot seat earlier in the 1988 time frame. Lew Eggebrech is better than Bill Sydnes. DSP32 is a new math-based object manipulator. Quote:
8514 does nothing for PC DOS gaming. 8514 compatibility is nothing when S3 didn't even bother implementing it. With Windows 3.0's 1990 release, I didn't care about 8514 compatibility. The only credit for IBM is the strong 256-color use case as the baseline clone target. You started the PC add-ons vs PC add-ons debate. Read https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...postcount=3516 8514 does nothing for PC DOS gaming. It covers your "professional" 2D acceleration argument. 8514 does nothing for PC DOS gaming. Quote:
My ET4000xxx with market share example is to show the competitive market from the gaming PC's side and it's against the "PC has crappy Tridents" argument. I advocated for improved math power for A1200/CD32 as per Lew Eggebrech's interview. Quote:
I posted Intel's 486 and Pentium shipment report to shoot down the "most PCs are XT/AT crap with monochrome display" argument. Quote:
Your argument wouldn't matter when AGA's 2D acceleration is not fast i.e. A1200's gimped 68EC020 has 49% of A1200's Blitter. Quote:
I haven't forgotten OS patches for fast CPU bilts on my A1200 with 8 MB Fast RAM card, and later with TF1260. The OS patches for fast CPU bilts were applied to my A3000(68030@25 Mhz with static ZIP Fast RAM)'s OS. Quote:
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"OTI087 (the latter with some acceleration) is provided by the XF86_SVGA server and the oak driver." Last edited by hammer; 19 April 2024 at 08:19. |
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19 April 2024, 07:39 | #3720 | ||
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Well, the question was wether the A1200 was disappointing, wasn't it? In my case, it was. So, what else to say? |
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