AmigaOS 3.2 and beyond

[hUMUNGUs]

utri007: your suggestion is to NOT develop it any more ? Maybe ask for solutions instead of stupid ideas like that. Be grateful and some show some #$% respect !

[AC/DC HACKER!]

Originally Posted by hUMUNGUs

utri007: your suggestion is to NOT develop it any more ? Maybe ask for solutions instead of stupid ideas like that. Be grateful and some show some #$% respect !

Appreciation is much better than grateful. However, chill. Relax...slamming isn't needed.

[gulliver]

@DarrenHD

No, there is no AmiDock in AmigaOS 3.2.

One of our developers managed to meet and have a brief and friendly
conversation with Frank Mariak. He said he would look into the matter
of taking a decision regarding his product. This was many months ago,
and unfortunately we have no news since then.

Regarding the Radeon and Warp3D, this is a driver for a specific hardware expansion. My advice is to
ask the ones who manufacture and sell those expansions.

@utri007

Then I am afraid AmigaOS is not for you.

During the Commodore era AmigaOS was multiple times released with an accompanying ROM that was mandatory.

AmigaOS 3.2 will require a physical 3.2 rom. Like 3.1.4 and like many other AmigaOSes in the past. Nothing is new in this regard.

Some components must be in rom, and if we develop significant changes they require a new ROM. It is as simple as that.

The LoadModule program provided a workaround for some (not all) modules to be loaded and replaced from disk. But this approach,
despite looking flexible, it is plagued with drawbacks:

-it cannot load a new expansion.library ROM module.

-the rom modules loading process is slow and takes some time.

-it requires a reboot.

-on many ocassions accelerators do not properly add their memory to the system, and this results in the ROM modules being loaded
exclusively on to valuable chipmem.

-ROM modules always eat ram no matter how well behaved your accelerator is when using LoadModule.

And then, there are much more cons, but this is just a small sample.

The LoadModule functionality on AmigaOS 3.2 will probably be provided too. But it is meant as a last resort, a temporary fix or workaround.
It is not a solution, as it has limitations as mentioned above.

Also have in mind that only you know the kind of hacks and patches you are running in your customized 1MB ROM.

So why on earth will you spend money and effort on an Amiga buying all kinds of expansions to make it fast if you later intend to handicap it? Get any AmigaOS version you wish to use the ROMS it deserves, they are really inexpensive, and you can even burn them yourself.

[DarrenHD]

Originally Posted by gulliver

@DarrenHD

No, there is no AmiDock in AmigaOS 3.2.

One of our developers managed to meet and have a brief and friendly
conversation with Frank Mariak. He said he would look into the matter
of taking a decision regarding his product. This was many months ago,
and unfortunately we have no news since then.

Regarding the Radeon and Warp3D, this is a driver for a specific hardware expansion. My advice is to
ask the ones who manufacture and sell those expansions.

Too bad about CyberGraphX. Oh well, at least you tried.

The answer you gave about Radeon Warp3D (for OS 3.x) is the standard answer Amiga users have got for years. I'm not knocking you, it's just no one wants to do it, that much is clear It is a real shame. The Warp3D support for OS4/Classic for Radeon, I'm not sure who did it, but I believe that was done by Hyperion (contractors working for Hyperion.). Also the 3rd party bus-board support (Mediator/GREX, Prometheus/Firestorm) was done by Hyperion (contractors) or developers of OS4. In a sunny world it would be the same for Hyperion's AmigaOS 3.x

Darren

[kamelito]

It was the same thing with the Domino driver, it was working under 2.x and when 3.0 came out the driver crashed. I tried to fix the issue for a friend debugging the code and never really fixed it properly. I just removed a freemem call that crashed the driver but the mouse pointer disappeared then we had to send the card back. (SontoswskiWB)

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by utri007

I would suggest do not develop it any more. Any new feature is going to broke something and cause problems with older software.

The problem is to find the right balance between compatibility and extensibility. The problem is that questionable programming techniques break software that depends on internals that have never been documented or guaranteed, and one cannot work around such issues everywhere, even less so if it is not clear what these techniques are.


3.1.4 contains workarounds to keep older (not recent) versions of P96 working. We would have included workarounds for CGfx if its author would have dared to communicate the requirements to us, but despite asking several times, this communication was a dead-end, so intuition was not upgraded in 3.1.4. Now in 3.2 many users wished to have a new intution permanently, so it will end up in ROM, with the option to keep the *old* intuition on disk and load it from there if you are a CGfx user.


I'm not really sure how to say that, but it looks we really tried quite a lot (even inventing a new mechanism for replacing intuition) to keep CGfx users happy.



During the development of 3.2, we became aware of additional software with questionable programming techniques (Dopus, Kingkong....) and tried our best to work around the issues.


What exactly the right balance is is hard to say and hard to decide. I have made a decision for myself, but I'm not claiming that mine is the right and only one. In the end, the customers decide whether to buy or not to buy 3.2.

Originally Posted by utri007

Using OS3.1.4 has several show stopper features for me, at least it shouldn't require new rom or rom modules.

Well, but that's self-contradictory, isn't it? One cannot fix issues of ROM-resident components at one hand, and do that *without* new modules and without a new ROMs. So the problem isn't really the ROM, is it? It seems more your (probably understandable) reluctance to install one.



On the bright side, 3.2 will (hopefully) include mechanisms that will make it less likely to require new ROMs beyond this release as additional ROM modules will become loadable from disk, though a copy in the ROM resides as fallback.

Originally Posted by utri007

There is a problem if I use it with kickstart 3.1 and load modules with loadmodules command. I can't boot to OS without startup-sequence.

I am not aware of such a problem. Go to the first reboot, *then* hold both mouse buttons to reach the new boot menu, then boot without startup-sequence. Simple. Or install a new ROM. Asking concretely: What is the problem?

Originally Posted by utri007

And if using a rom, then lefting Workbench library out of kickstart is causing unsovable problems.

Please be concrete - what are these problems? The workbench and icon library will be found on any volume that is present or you insert. Even a floppy with these libraries in LIBS will do. Just keep them on the harddisk, then boot from floppy, and the libraries will become available.

[kamelito]

@Thor
I think that known badly written program that broke in new version of the OS should be made public in advance. If the source code is available it should be fixed and the workaround removed from the OS and in the doc written upgrade to version X. If only the binary is available then is there a similar program that work well then ask to use X instead of Y and remove the workaround in the OS. If only the binary is available and the program is a must have then it should be reversed and patched, again workaround should be removed from the OS once done. But first you should made that list public, it can be grown by users feedback.
Users also first should says if they can live without X and so nobody bother, for the rest see above. It should be a community effort. Thor shoot first show us this list.

[utri007]

I am not aware of such a problem. Go to the first reboot, *then* hold both mouse buttons to reach the new boot menu, then boot without startup-sequence. Simple. Or install a new ROM. Asking concretely: What is the problem?

to work this requires at least one boot wich loads those modules to resident. Without that, try to boot without startup-sequence and then write loadwb command.

Please be concrete - what are these problems? The workbench and icon library will be found on any volume that is present or you insert. Even a floppy with these libraries in LIBS will do. Just keep them on the harddisk, then boot from floppy, and the libraries will become available.

Problem is that any boot floppy now requires workbench and icon library to work.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by utri007

Problem is that any boot floppy now requires workbench and icon library to work.

... Which is present on the hard drive you installed 3.1.4 on. Even if you boot from floppy.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by utri007

to work this requires at least one boot wich loads those modules to resident. Without that, try to boot without startup-sequence and then write loadwb command.

Then let the system reboot. I am sorry, where is the problem with that? Either reboot once, *then* boot without startup-sequence, or install a ROM. It cannot work without a reboot.


If you need an emergency workbench, use "LoadWB Legacy".

Originally Posted by utri007

Problem is that any boot floppy now requires workbench and icon library to work.

Which are installed on your harddisk, and from which the system will find them, even if you boot from floppy. Please be concrete: Where is your problem precisely?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by kamelito

@Thor
I think that known badly written program that broke in new version of the OS should be made public in advance.

Look, this is not a practical plan. First, nobody knows all programs, leave alone the broken ones. Even if such a program is known, what the team do to convince users not to use such programs? I'm telling since ages to stay away from Kingkong, but that does not stop people from using it. So we have to find workarounds. CGFx is not compatible, but we cannot fix it, nor offer an alternative for some hardware, and its vendor is outright unwilling to communicate, even as we offered kludges. Vampire has its problems too, but their team ignores system design principles such as autoconf to announce their custom hardware, or not to populate reserved address space, making a 1MB ROM for vampire impossible.



So, in the end, this plan does not work. If a program or hardware does not run, it is "the fault of the Os" in the eye of the user, no matter where the origin of the problem is, and the problem cannot always be addressed at its origin, either due to unwillingness of the users, or unwillingness of vendor support, unavailabililty of vendors, or unwillingness of their authors.



The only practical solution is to find compromizes, and - as this is the nature of compromizes - not everyone agrees where the boundary line lies.


It is outright impossible to make everyone happy.

[kamelito]

Is there an existing tool that watch access to private datas structure and then print the culprit ?

[npagonis73]

Nothing to add in the feature list. I have been covered by the other guys here and the team itself. I am an A1200 owner running a very complete version of 3.1.4.1 + BestWB plus a lot of other tools and programs and i have to say that it is amazing to see that our beloved OS is still being supported and developed after so many years!!

I am so excited waiting for the new 3.2 Amiga OS which cannot be described by words.

A massive thank you to the whole team and testers for al their hard work and dedication on the Amiga.

Our support will always be there for you and anyone who is showing love and attention to our Amigas

[malko]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

[...] I'm telling since ages to stay away from Kingkong, but that does not stop people from using it. [...]

Sorry if I make my "blond" but do you mean KingCON ?

[...] their team ignores system design principles such as autoconf to announce their custom hardware, or not to populate reserved address space, making a 1MB ROM for vampire impossible. [...]

Didn't know about it. Hum...

[...] It is outright impossible to make everyone happy.

True, but at least I think that a majority of the community (+50%) is happy with the update of the OS .

[coldacid]

The talk about badly behaving programs reminds me of Raymond Chen's blog, "The Old New Thing", with its discussion of all the tricks Windows developers had to do just to make older apps work on newer versions of Windows. And yet people still blame Windows for breaking those applications, without knowing or caring that the developers of those apps were the ones breaking the implicit contract between the OS and the program in the first place!

Compatibility is a real PITA, and we shouldn't hold it against the operating system or its developers for the faults of apps and their developers for doing things they shouldn't have in the first place.

[kamelito]

Existing feature ?
When selecting files on the WB why should we use the shift key to move/copy more than one file? (3.1 here)

[gulliver]

Russian, Polish and Greek users of 3.1.4 will get a little gift soon.

[malko]

^ Not that I use any of these language (FR rocks ! ), but it's great to see that non Latin alphabet will get support as well

[Rotzloeffel]

Originally Posted by DarrenHD

The answer you gave about Radeon Warp3D (for OS 3.x) is the standard answer Amiga users have got for years.

Darren

There is a Driver for Radeon-Cards and Warp-3D in develepment… stay tuned, I saw it in November 19 in an early beta state!

[steenl]

Originally Posted by Rotzloeffel

There is a Driver for Radeon-Cards and Warp-3D in develepment… stay tuned, I saw it in November 19 in an early beta state!

Oh interesting. Will it work in my GRex4000D?
I recently bought a Radeon 7000 card and put it my GRex, well aware that there are no drivers, but I wanted to poke at it and see what I could get it to do.


So far I have extracted the bios and started disassembling it