Amiga questions you've always been too embarrassed to ask - Page 148

Thomas Richter · 19 March 2022, 13:32

No. You can only use partitions behind the magic wall if you have both a device driver that can address this area (either by TD64,NSD or direct SCSI), and a file system that is able to address the partitions. It is not the *size* of the partition or their number, or whether it is the first or not, it is "is the partition within the 4GB limit". With 3.1, and only 3.1, you cannot go beyond this boundary, no matter how many partitions you have.

There is another limit for the size of OFS partitions (not FFS partitions) but that's not related to 3.1.

dreadnought · 19 March 2022, 14:21

Okay but, once again, I don't want to go past 4GB. I just want a hdf with one 1.5GB partition but for some reason I'm only allowed to stretch it to 1GB, after that it starts a new size count (and a new partition).

Trying to make a 1.6GB hdf, for example. I am in Partition screen in the Toolbox, showing one Unused space of 799MB and one 799MB partition (or maybe it's 2 partitions, not sure).

I delete the partition, now I have one big Unused space. In theory I think I should be able to fill it to ~1.6 GB, but when I drag the slider this happens

After 1GB the counter resets to 0 and acts weird

slaapliedje · 19 March 2022, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

No. You can only use partitions behind the magic wall if you have both a device driver that can address this area (either by TD64,NSD or direct SCSI), and a file system that is able to address the partitions. It is not the *size* of the partition or their number, or whether it is the first or not, it is "is the partition within the 4GB limit". With 3.1, and only 3.1, you cannot go beyond this boundary, no matter how many partitions you have.

There is another limit for the size of OFS partitions (not FFS partitions) but that's not related to 3.1.

Hmm, too many operating systems and weird partitioning requirements. Could have sworn though it was the Amiga that had 1gb for the OS drive, so it could then load the device driver to support larger partitions. Unless you have a boot ROM like FastATA. Or of course the newer kickstart.
But you would definitely be the person to know better. ?

Thomas Richter · 19 March 2022, 18:30

You can load additional file systems, but rarely device drivers. But the question was about Kick 3.1, and its file system does not support partitions beyond 4GB. There are also numerous defects in the HDToolBox which prevent it from working with large disks. The 3.1.4 version then became 64-bit aware and does not have such problems.

Thus, if you need bigger disks, I recommend an Os upgrade. You won't have fun with 3.1.

slaapliedje · 19 March 2022, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

You can load additional file systems, but rarely device drivers. But the question was about Kick 3.1, and its file system does not support partitions beyond 4GB. There are also numerous defects in the HDToolBox which prevent it from working with large disks. The 3.1.4 version then became 64-bit aware and does not have such problems.

Thus, if you need bigger disks, I recommend an Os upgrade. You won't have fun with 3.1.

That's what 3.9 does though, right? Boots, loads a rom file off disk, and reboots. Same if you have a kickstart 3.1, but are running 3.1.4/3.2. Which is why if you want the larger partition support fully, you need to replace the kickstart (plus a ton of other awesome goodies that have come with the setup).

At least with the Amiga it's more straight forward. Dealing with Atari ST operating systems... earlier TOS versions could only handle 256mb partitions, 2.0x and 3.0x could handle 512mb, and Falcon can handle 1GB. And this is probably where I'm getting confused, as you can use the first partition of those sizes, but have BIGDOS (or something like that) in the auto folder, and it'll allow larger partitions after the first.

dreadnought · 19 March 2022, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

You can load additional file systems, but rarely device drivers. But the question was about Kick 3.1, and its file system does not support partitions beyond 4GB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreadnought

once again, I don't want to go past 4GB. I just want a hdf with one 1.5GB partition

There seems to be some miscommunication thing going on here

Thomas Richter · 19 March 2022, 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by slaapliedje

That's what 3.9 does though, right?

Well, not quite. Yes, 3.9 came with a 64-bit capable FFS, but due to Heinz, it only supports NSD64 which many device drivers do not speak. You then needed another patch on top of the device driver which came with the reboot. Kludgy.

Thomas Richter · 19 March 2022, 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreadnought

There seems to be some miscommunication thing going on here

Well, maybe. There is more than one problem here. One is the 4GB boundary, but there are also integer overflows in the 3.1 HDToolBox in several places. Quite frankly, 3.1 is *really* not the right system for larger disks.

slaapliedje · 19 March 2022, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Well, not quite. Yes, 3.9 came with a 64-bit capable FFS, but due to Heinz, it only supports NSD64 which many device drivers do not speak. You then needed another patch on top of the device driver which came with the reboot. Kludgy.

Ah, that makes sense. I definitely must be mixing up Atari and Amiga filesystem / partitioning limitation.

For all my Amigas, I try to upgrade to 3.2 to not have such limitations, so it's been a while since I had to deal with them there.

thomas · 20 March 2022, 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreadnought

I just want a hdf with one 1.5GB partition but for some reason I'm only allowed to stretch it to 1GB, after that it starts a new size count (and a new partition).

Don't use the diagram. Enable advanced options and enter cylinder numbers, then it's ok.

Or go back to Change Drive Type and change the geometry so that you have a larger number of sectors per cylinder and therefore a smaller number of cylinders. Then it won't overflow at high cylinder numbers.

dreadnought · 20 March 2022, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas

Don't use the diagram. Enable advanced options and enter cylinder numbers, then it's ok.

Or go back to Change Drive Type and change the geometry so that you have a larger number of sectors per cylinder and therefore a smaller number of cylinders. Then it won't overflow at high cylinder numbers.

Thanks, this sounds like it could lead to a solution, but unfortunately I failed when trying to do it.

I don't want to hog this thread with the question which turned out to be a bit bigger than initially thought, so I made a new thread for it.

If you guys could comment further there it'd be most appreciated.

Weasel Fierce · 28 March 2022, 18:21

So will Megadrive controllers actually explode your amiga?

Over the years Ive seen people say it can, people say it's totally safe and people say it might not be safe with aging hardware.

I used them in the past but only briefly.

Daedalus · 28 March 2022, 19:15

It's a very, very low risk to the Amiga, though the risk of damage to the C64 is quite high. Ultimately, the controller isn't wired for Amiga use and only works by coincidence. This is why more advanced controllers, wireless controllers etc. don't work with the Amiga. A simple adaptor allows it to be powered properly and eliminates any risk to the Amiga.

Jope · 28 March 2022, 19:17

They won't blow up an Amiga, but for all buttons to be available, you need to swap two wires around either inside the pad or with a little intermediate adapter.

Depends on the games you play whether it's a good idea to use a gamepad. Especially "up to jump" games or games that otherwise rely on accurate cardinals and diagonals tend to be more difficult to play with a megadrive pad.

Weasel Fierce · 28 March 2022, 20:14

Appreciate the responses. I do have other controllers that are custom built but it's good to know and I always wanted to ask.

NLS · 29 March 2022, 14:15

Indeed this was risky for C64 only.

nogginthenog · 29 March 2022, 19:59

What exactly is the issue with Megadrive controllers? Shorting 5v to GND?

NLS · 29 March 2022, 20:27

https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comment...ol_pad_on_c64/

Daedalus · 31 March 2022, 18:20

It doesn't short 5V to ground, but the chip(s) inside the Megadrive pad aren't powered properly. Instead, they're powered by one of the outputs from Paula, which is very limited in the amount of current it can provide. Additionally, it depends on that pin being set to high, which isn't guaranteed. If that signal sags due to excessive current being drawn by the controller, or if it's set low, the controller chips won't be powered properly or at all. That would typically mean the controller simply doesn't work, but when power is applied to other pins on a logic chip and not to a power pin, very odd things can happen like power being fed to the wrong pins. This situation can be exacerbated by rapidly turning the power on and off, which can produce spikes on the I/O pins and is what happens when the Amiga tries to read a CD32 pad. The Amiga inputs are protected and can usually take a certain amount of that sort of abuse so the risk is very low, but ultimately it's not ideal.

Weasel Fierce · 31 March 2022, 23:00

The inevitable follow up question:
Does the same apply to Master System pads? I vaguely recall reading they are perfectly safe but most electronics is 100% beyond me.

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19 March 2022, 13:32	#2941
Thomas Richter Registered User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Germany Posts: 3,277	No. You can only use partitions behind the magic wall if you have both a device driver that can address this area (either by TD64,NSD or direct SCSI), and a file system that is able to address the partitions. It is not the size of the partition or their number, or whether it is the first or not, it is "is the partition within the 4GB limit". With 3.1, and only 3.1, you cannot go beyond this boundary, no matter how many partitions you have. There is another limit for the size of OFS partitions (not FFS partitions) but that's not related to 3.1.

19 March 2022, 14:21	#2942
dreadnought Registered User Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Ur, Atlantis Posts: 2,000	Okay but, once again, I don't want to go past 4GB. I just want a hdf with one 1.5GB partition but for some reason I'm only allowed to stretch it to 1GB, after that it starts a new size count (and a new partition). Trying to make a 1.6GB hdf, for example. I am in Partition screen in the Toolbox, showing one Unused space of 799MB and one 799MB partition (or maybe it's 2 partitions, not sure). I delete the partition, now I have one big Unused space. In theory I think I should be able to fill it to ~1.6 GB, but when I drag the slider this happens After 1GB the counter resets to 0 and acts weird

19 March 2022, 18:30	#2944
Thomas Richter Registered User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Germany Posts: 3,277	You can load additional file systems, but rarely device drivers. But the question was about Kick 3.1, and its file system does not support partitions beyond 4GB. There are also numerous defects in the HDToolBox which prevent it from working with large disks. The 3.1.4 version then became 64-bit aware and does not have such problems. Thus, if you need bigger disks, I recommend an Os upgrade. You won't have fun with 3.1.

28 March 2022, 18:21	#2952
Weasel Fierce Registered User Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Michigan Posts: 661	So will Megadrive controllers actually explode your amiga? Over the years Ive seen people say it can, people say it's totally safe and people say it might not be safe with aging hardware. I used them in the past but only briefly.

28 March 2022, 19:15	#2953
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,374	It's a very, very low risk to the Amiga, though the risk of damage to the C64 is quite high. Ultimately, the controller isn't wired for Amiga use and only works by coincidence. This is why more advanced controllers, wireless controllers etc. don't work with the Amiga. A simple adaptor allows it to be powered properly and eliminates any risk to the Amiga.

28 March 2022, 19:17	#2954
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,882	They won't blow up an Amiga, but for all buttons to be available, you need to swap two wires around either inside the pad or with a little intermediate adapter. Depends on the games you play whether it's a good idea to use a gamepad. Especially "up to jump" games or games that otherwise rely on accurate cardinals and diagonals tend to be more difficult to play with a megadrive pad.

28 March 2022, 20:14	#2955
Weasel Fierce Registered User Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Michigan Posts: 661	Appreciate the responses. I do have other controllers that are custom built but it's good to know and I always wanted to ask.

29 March 2022, 14:15	#2956
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 758	Indeed this was risky for C64 only.

29 March 2022, 19:59	#2957
nogginthenog Amigan Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: London Posts: 1,311	What exactly is the issue with Megadrive controllers? Shorting 5v to GND?

29 March 2022, 20:27	#2958
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 758	https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comment...ol_pad_on_c64/

31 March 2022, 18:20	#2959
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,374	It doesn't short 5V to ground, but the chip(s) inside the Megadrive pad aren't powered properly. Instead, they're powered by one of the outputs from Paula, which is very limited in the amount of current it can provide. Additionally, it depends on that pin being set to high, which isn't guaranteed. If that signal sags due to excessive current being drawn by the controller, or if it's set low, the controller chips won't be powered properly or at all. That would typically mean the controller simply doesn't work, but when power is applied to other pins on a logic chip and not to a power pin, very odd things can happen like power being fed to the wrong pins. This situation can be exacerbated by rapidly turning the power on and off, which can produce spikes on the I/O pins and is what happens when the Amiga tries to read a CD32 pad. The Amiga inputs are protected and can usually take a certain amount of that sort of abuse so the risk is very low, but ultimately it's not ideal.

31 March 2022, 23:00	#2960
Weasel Fierce Registered User Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Michigan Posts: 661	The inevitable follow up question: Does the same apply to Master System pads? I vaguely recall reading they are perfectly safe but most electronics is 100% beyond me.

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