Dungeon Master Custom Dungeons

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

And some infos are still missing, like "cursed", "burnt out", etc. No room in your grab for these.

Of course they're missing, and for two reasons:

1. My grab only shows that a lot can be fitted in this space.
2. Item infos are context sensitive.

Another thing: How many of those item status components, such as cursed, are there in the game? Tell me, and I'll do another mock up.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Yes I'm talking about this area. Object info does not fit at all when you have several other things to say about the object.

I'd like to try that (see above), especially since my mock up is quite quick and dirty, and I can do better than that. I also believe that everything can be fitted

Originally Posted by meynaf

About the map, CSB's magic map already appears here, and only shows a 7x7 area.

Yeah, that's small. Your solution is way better and easier to use.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Graphics - and a big part of the code - are the same as what's used for CSB's magic map. So it's not such the big job it looks.

Still a job well done.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Ok, i will add that to the todo list.

Thanks, my hand will be very happy

Originally Posted by meynaf

Seems to be a good start you're making.

Indeed. This time I'm going to try not to miss anything.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Of course they're missing, and for two reasons:

1. My grab only shows that a lot can be fitted in this space.
2. Item infos are context sensitive.

Another thing: How many of those item status components, such as cursed, are there in the game? Tell me, and I'll do another mock up.

Longest descriptive i can think of is : "(broken, cursed, poisoned and burnt out)".

Originally Posted by Thorham

I'd like to try that (see above), especially since my mock up is quite quick and dirty, and I can do better than that. I also believe that everything can be fitted

Can be fitted perhaps, but possibly with very tight and ugly result, eh ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yeah, that's small. Your solution is way better and easier to use.

Both are there anyway ; magic maps still work, and should you find one, you will see that the spells that allow it to show more things, also work for the automap (so it's far from making the magic map useless, which i feared when i did that automap).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Still a job well done.

Apparently
I'm happy it satisfies you. I guess an automap in DM was dramatically missing ; in my young days i didn't care about making paper maps, but now...

Originally Posted by Thorham

Thanks, my hand will be very happy

You're left-handed ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Indeed. This time I'm going to try not to miss anything.

Heheh

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Seems to be just too easy. I think i will give you the source code of the routine that shows object informations, so you do it yourself .

Ok. Send to me source with english or polish comments, and I will add item infos.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You like to brag here don't you ?

Yes, my friend. In my test attempt Linflas joined to party (one puzzle needs two heroes, but I must check other option too) and my grizzly passed None Shall Pass puzzle.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Anyway, Lord Chaos called me on the phone and said that the grizzly called Don Adan would certainly fail at the puzzle called "world of illusions". So I don't have to worry, it's just a matter of time.

You are dreaming, my friend.
He/You was wrong in some cases. I passed Death Road, Butchery and 4 Dragons Puzzle, if I remember I can't pass these parts. But of course can exit part too hard for me to pass.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Remember, YOUR bones will end up in the dungeon as well.

No, due nothing can kill my Grizzly, then no bones available. He is ready to Hall of Fame

[Lord Riton]

@Don_Adan: What's the point on cheating ? Just to brag you won the game ?
You are cheating yourself like that..

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by Lord Riton

@Don_Adan: What's the point on cheating ?

Some infos about my progress.

Originally Posted by Lord Riton

Just to brag you won the game ?

No. Due this is very large map and I can miss something and can't finish this game.

Originally Posted by Lord Riton

You are cheating yourself like that..

This is possible.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Ok. Send to me source with english or polish comments, and I will add item infos.

Ok. Recall this to me after our bet.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Yes, my friend. In my test attempt Linflas joined to party (one puzzle needs two heroes, but I must check other option too) and my grizzly passed None Shall Pass puzzle.

This is a dragon's agony. Destroys lots of things, but dies at the end.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

You are dreaming, my friend.

No i am not. You're already blocked.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

He/You was wrong in some cases. I passed Death Road, Butchery and 4 Dragons Puzzle, if I remember I can't pass these parts. But of course can exit part too hard for me to pass.

Yeah, sure. You can pass any monster but you cheated with save games to pass them.
Saving after each successful blow that makes "enough damage" and after every missed enemy blow, isn't "passing", it's "cheating".
No wonder why you asked me to add the "load" option in disk opts !

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

No, due nothing can kill my Grizzly, then no bones available. He is ready to Hall of Fame

He can commit hara-kiri. He is ready for Hall of Fame, which is Hall of Bones in this dungeon.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Some infos about my progress.

No this is just bragging, as you sent these infos to me by mail already.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

No. Due this is very large map and I can miss something and can't finish this game.

This is exactly what will happen. Now you're starting to accept it.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Longest descriptive i can think of is : "(broken, cursed, poisoned and burnt out)".

At least burnt out is restricted to torches

Originally Posted by meynaf

Can be fitted perhaps, but possibly with very tight and ugly result, eh ?

I was wrong. It's much harder to fit than I thought Without small icons for the cursed, poisoned, etc stuff it's not going to happen, because of the different actions the weapons have. There can be three actions, and each of these has different attack power and/or charges assigned to them, and perhaps other things. I'll give it one more shot, though.

Is it possible to have multiple pages for this? The idea would be to click the eye icon with an item and then have the first page appear. Click again to show the second page. If it's possible, then the problem would be solved.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Both are there anyway ; magic maps still work, and should you find one, you will see that the spells that allow it to show more things, also work for the automap (so it's far from making the magic map useless, which i feared when i did that automap).

Cool, I'll look out for that map.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Apparently
I'm happy it satisfies you. I guess an automap in DM was dramatically missing ; in my young days i didn't care about making paper maps, but now...

Yeah, as easy as it is to make a paper map in this case (for the most part), an auto map is much handier.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You're left-handed ?

Nope, right handed here. For left handed people the keypad is fine, because they usually have the mouse at the left side of the keyboard. For right handed people however, WASD is much more conveniently placed than the keypad.

Actually, a lot of peecee games from the last ten years use WASD instead of cursor keys by default, and games that don't, usually allow redefining keys anyway. Amiga games could use this.

Anyway, I need to start playing more often. I've been playing to much Oblivion and Espgaluda lately

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

At least burnt out is restricted to torches

But torches can be used as ordinary weapons too.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I was wrong. It's much harder to fit than I thought Without small icons for the cursed, poisoned, etc stuff it's not going to happen, because of the different actions the weapons have. There can be three actions, and each of these has different attack power and/or charges assigned to them, and perhaps other things. I'll give it one more shot, though.

It sure is already difficult to fit all this.

And another big problem is that many objects have properties that are hardwired in the code. Even though i move these in the object descriptor when i find some - which triggers graphics.dat incompatibilities -, i don't really know how many are still hidden.
For example, diamond edge has extra ability to pierce armor.
Or, elven boots give a few percent bonus in maximum load.

Things are even worse when several weapon abilities are used simultaneously : e.g. for thrown weapons, damage also depends on weight.
So a good but light weapon isn't necessarily better than a heavy one.

Add to all this the fact that weapons have different options that reveal during the game, which makes some of them not so useful for beginners (e.g. hardcleave) and you will maybe see that giving weapon values not only can't replace player experience, but also can be misleading. DM rules are more complex than they look ; it's not about simple "damage value" like in many other games.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Is it possible to have multiple pages for this? The idea would be to click the eye icon with an item and then have the first page appear. Click again to show the second page. If it's possible, then the problem would be solved.

You can't really do that, as objects are shown while the game is still running, that is, in real time. Not to mention it would make the interactivity a lot different, requiring two clicks instead of one (which isn't a single click, but a held one).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Cool, I'll look out for that map.

May be quite difficult to find in the nightmare dungeon...
But if you get it, you'll have an edge over our friend Don Adan here, who didn't find it.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yeah, as easy as it is to make a paper map in this case (for the most part), an auto map is much handier.

I know. It makes some puzzles a lot easier, but nevertheless is a good option even to me.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Nope, right handed here. For left handed people the keypad is fine, because they usually have the mouse at the left side of the keyboard. For right handed people however, WASD is much more conveniently placed than the keypad.

Actually, a lot of peecee games from the last ten years use WASD instead of cursor keys by default, and games that don't, usually allow redefining keys anyway. Amiga games could use this.

I don't see the use for myself, but it shouldn't be too hard to add - once i've sorted out that complicated input code.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Anyway, I need to start playing more often. I've been playing to much Oblivion and Espgaluda lately

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

But torches can be used as ordinary weapons too.

Indeed, I forgot

Originally Posted by meynaf

And another big problem is that many objects have properties that are hardwired in the code.

Okay, lets forget this then.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Even though i move these in the object descriptor when i find some - which triggers graphics.dat incompatibilities -, i don't really know how many are still hidden.
For example, diamond edge has extra ability to pierce armor.
Or, elven boots give a few percent bonus in maximum load.

Things are even worse when several weapon abilities are used simultaneously : e.g. for thrown weapons, damage also depends on weight.
So a good but light weapon isn't necessarily better than a heavy one.

Add to all this the fact that weapons have different options that reveal during the game, which makes some of them not so useful for beginners (e.g. hardcleave) and you will maybe see that giving weapon values not only can't replace player experience, but also can be misleading. DM rules are more complex than they look ; it's not about simple "damage value" like in many other games.

Right, that's nice Really not going to happen, then, eh?

Originally Posted by meynaf

You can't really do that, as objects are shown while the game is still running, that is, in real time. Not to mention it would make the interactivity a lot different, requiring two clicks instead of one (which isn't a single click, but a held one).

It could be done by using several individual clicks. First time shows page one, second time show page two, etc.

Originally Posted by meynaf

May be quite difficult to find in the nightmare dungeon...
But if you get it, you'll have an edge over our friend Don Adan here, who didn't find it.

Okay, lets find this thing then.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I know. It makes some puzzles a lot easier, but nevertheless is a good option even to me.

Making a map by hand would have the same effect.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I don't see the use for myself, but it shouldn't be too hard to add - once i've sorted out that complicated input code.

Why not? It should be more comfortable, or are you left-handed?

I've got a better idea for showing item infos: Just show increased stats for armor. That will fit without any problems. Alternatively, this stuff can be looked up easily on the DM encyclopedia, especially with two monitors.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Right, that's nice Really not going to happen, then, eh?

Right, it's not as easy as most people think it is...

Originally Posted by Thorham

It could be done by using several individual clicks. First time shows page one, second time show page two, etc.

This would completely change the way it's done.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Okay, lets find this thing then.

Not an easy task

Originally Posted by Thorham

Making a map by hand would have the same effect.

Not really. A hand drawn map doesn't show changes.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Why not? It should be more comfortable, or are you left-handed?

No, not left-handed. I just fail to see the comfort gain here.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I've got a better idea for showing item infos: Just show increased stats for armor. That will fit without any problems.

Armor doesn't increase stats. It's just used in damage computation.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Alternatively, this stuff can be looked up easily on the DM encyclopedia, especially with two monitors.

Sure, and once you know the game and the objects, you just no longer need this kind of information...

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

This would completely change the way it's done.

Would it be difficult?

Originally Posted by meynaf

Not an easy task

So it seems.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Not really. A hand drawn map doesn't show changes.

That's true, and it's a bit of a pity the auto map does, but it's unavoidable. I think I'll just use the auto map for basic orientation and nothing else (I detest spoilers).

Originally Posted by meynaf

No, not left-handed. I just fail to see the comfort gain here.

It's more ergonomic, because your hand would be in an easier position. The keypad is really in the wrong place for the left hand.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Armor doesn't increase stats. It's just used in damage computation.

I thought some armor did...

Originally Posted by meynaf

Sure, and once you know the game and the objects, you just no longer need this kind of information...

Perhaps that item info thing isn't all that useful then.

Any news on how Dan is coming along?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Would it be difficult?

Yes, because the game doesn't stop while showing info.

Originally Posted by Thorham

It's more ergonomic, because your hand would be in an easier position. The keypad is really in the wrong place for the left hand.

But then your hands are more distant from each other, as the keyboard is large. Perhaps not so comfortable, but, hey, it will be there in next release.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I thought some armor did...

In Dm2, yes.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Perhaps that item info thing isn't all that useful then.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Any news on how Dan is coming along?

You mean Don ?

[Thorham]

Got a question: How many non-essential items can the dungeon hold?

Originally Posted by meynaf

But then your hands are more distant from each other, as the keyboard is large.

Not a problem, and peecee games have been using WASD for years, because of ergonomic reasons. Try it yourself. Place your hand on the WASD area, and then on the keypad without moving your A1200, and tell me which is easier.

Originally Posted by meynaf

it will be there in next release.

Great, thanks

Originally Posted by meynaf

In Dm2, yes.

DM has the Cloak of Night which gives your character +8 dexterity, and there are some others, too (not many, though).

Originally Posted by meynaf

You mean Don ?

Eh, yes

Anyway, I finally got in some good four to five hours of game play (had to tear myself away to make some food ).

Killed all of the monsters that come in the part after the Hall of Champions. Wondered around for too long and killed some of the big, yellow monsters (not the scorpions). Killed the Vexirk (spelling?) Brothers. Killed a bunch of worms. Killed a few rock piles, and killed a horde of mummies, after which I finally reached the water area. Phew!

Current levels (Halk, solo):

Fighter: Adapt
Ninja: Adapt
Priest: Journeyman
Wizard: Artisan

Time to get back playing

[Don_Adan]

Small infos about my progress, finished Death Road quest (received Lock Picks), finished 4 Dragons quest (next key to my collection), updated Butchery quest (next key is necessary to later journey). Started seven gold quest, go to depth levels (received Green Gem), collected full Darc armor for Daroou, collected full Dragon armor for Linflas.
Daroou is:
Fighter 5th Master
Ninja 4th Master
Priest 4th Master
Wizard 4th Master

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Small infos about my progress, finished Death Road quest (received Lock Picks), finished 4 Dragons quest (next key to my collection), updated Butchery quest (next key is necessary to later journey). Started seven gold quest, go to depth levels (received Green Gem), collected full Darc armor for Daroou, collected full Dragon armor for Linflas.
Daroou is:
Fighter 5th Master
Ninja 4th Master
Priest 4th Master
Wizard 4th Master

Impressive But... I'm gonna catch up with you

Meynaf, how far is he?

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Impressive But... I'm gonna catch up with you

Better try to find Magic Map, due perhaps I missed this item for now.
You can check: pit hole, fake wall and plate in one line combination. Also I don't checked all walls (for fake or buttons) exactly, due this map is very large (over 30 or more levels, mostly 34x34 cells).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Meynaf, how far is he?

Perhaps this is secret, due bet with Phil. But I suspected that over 20%. For now I have ~30 keys, 2 gems.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Better try to find Magic Map, due perhaps I missed this item for now.

Yeah, hope I can find it...

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

You can check: pit hole, fake wall and plate in one line combination.

Please, no spoilers of this kind

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Perhaps this is secret, due bet with Phil. But I suspected that over 20%.

20 percent? How many hours did that take?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Got a question: How many non-essential items can the dungeon hold?

The dungeon can hold up to 1024 objects of each kind (weapons, clothing, chests, scrolls, potions, misc), regardless if they are essential or not.
Is that what you wanted to know ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Not a problem, and peecee games have been using WASD for years, because of ergonomic reasons. Try it yourself. Place your hand on the WASD area, and then on the keypad without moving your A1200, and tell me which is easier.

I've tried it, and i don't feel easy this way. Matter of habits perhaps. Also remember DM would be QWE/ASD due it has 6 direction buttons.

Originally Posted by Thorham

DM has the Cloak of Night which gives your character +8 dexterity, and there are some others, too (not many, though).

Yes, the dexhelm and the powertowers. Forgot about these. However, it's easy to know what they do from the character's values, no need to pollute the object info area with that.
Also other objects have effects more difficult to tell, like elven boots.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Eh, yes

He is cheating, so you can consider all his achievements as invalid.
You are still the best player in my dungeon.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Anyway, I finally got in some good four to five hours of game play (had to tear myself away to make some food ).

Killed all of the monsters that come in the part after the Hall of Champions. Wondered around for too long and killed some of the big, yellow monsters (not the scorpions). Killed the Vexirk (spelling?) Brothers. Killed a bunch of worms. Killed a few rock piles, and killed a horde of mummies, after which I finally reached the water area. Phew!

Current levels (Halk, solo):

Fighter: Adapt
Ninja: Adapt
Priest: Journeyman
Wizard: Artisan

Time to get back playing

That's some quite nice startup

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Small infos about my progress, finished Death Road quest (received Lock Picks), finished 4 Dragons quest (next key to my collection), updated Butchery quest (next key is necessary to later journey). Started seven gold quest, go to depth levels (received Green Gem), collected full Darc armor for Daroou, collected full Dragon armor for Linflas.
Daroou is:
Fighter 5th Master
Ninja 4th Master
Priest 4th Master
Wizard 4th Master

Still bragging here, eh ? Okay, Thorham asked for news, but haven't you had enough already ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Impressive But... I'm gonna catch up with you

I doubt you will, as you're playing fair and he does not.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Meynaf, how far is he?

As far as a cheater can get.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Better try to find Magic Map, due perhaps I missed this item for now.
You can check: pit hole, fake wall and plate in one line combination. Also I don't checked all walls (for fake or buttons) exactly, due this map is very large (over 30 or more levels, mostly 34x34 cells).

You won't find it this way.

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Perhaps this is secret, due bet with Phil. But I suspected that over 20%. For now I have ~30 keys, 2 gems.

It doesn't matter, as for anyone who cheats it becomes invalid anyway.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yeah, hope I can find it...

Would be a lot easier in another dungeon...

Originally Posted by Thorham

Please, no spoilers of this kind

+1

Originally Posted by Thorham

20 percent? How many hours did that take?

He's "playing" since 15th of August. That's many, many hours.
But I could reach where he is in less than a single week.


Anyway...

Don't you find it a little strange that this guy, never having really played DM before (or any other similar RPG game, btw), can get this far ?


Our friend Don Adan's fave fighting technique is : save - try a fight round - reload if not satisfying.
Add to this he abuses of invisibility spell, has slowed down the game to solve a puzzle (!), asked a few people for help (you knew that already for yourself), repeatedly tried to worm information out of me (by mail), has looked in the data files for getting info (and lied when i asked him how he got all the game's key names), and is strongly suspected of cheating by other means (code and/or save alterations, simple dungeon mapper).

Every time he appears to be close to blocked, he suddenly finds a solution and resumes playing without having really stopped. He was quite elusive in explaining me how he passed some puzzles. The ones he passes the easiest are either based on monster fights, or (more recently) the ones someone could find a lot easier if having a map beforehand. Ahem...

Is all that playing it fair ?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

The dungeon can hold up to 1024 objects of each kind (weapons, clothing, chests, scrolls, potions, misc), regardless if they are essential or not.
Is that what you wanted to know ?

That's almost exactly what I wanted to know. I'm asking because of things such as worm rounds and screamer slices. I don't want them to go to waste, but extensively training just to use them up sucks a little.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I've tried it, and i don't feel easy this way. Matter of habits perhaps. Also remember DM would be QWE/ASD due it has 6 direction buttons.

While playing for a five hours straight I could really feel my wrist and under arm because of the awkward hand position. QWEASD would be a blessing for long sessions.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Yes, the dexhelm and the powertowers. Forgot about these. However, it's easy to know what they do from the character's values, no need to pollute the object info area with that.
Also other objects have effects more difficult to tell, like elven boots.

True. Those item infos aren't really necessary with the guides that are available. I have a dual monitor setup and can switch one monitor to Amiga so that I can view docs and what not on the peecee at the same time (also really handy for viewing coding docs).

Originally Posted by meynaf

He is cheating, so you can consider all his achievements as invalid.

Really? That's not cool.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You are still the best player in my dungeon.

Perhaps

Originally Posted by meynaf

That's some quite nice startup

Yep, but it sure took me long enough.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I doubt you will, as you're playing fair and he does not.

But he's been playing quite a long time now.

Originally Posted by meynaf

He's "playing" since 15th of August. That's many, many hours.

Then perhaps I can catch up

Originally Posted by meynaf

But I could reach where he is in less than a single week.

Of course, you made the dungeon

Originally Posted by meynaf

Don't you find it a little strange that this guy, never having really played DM before (or any other similar RPG game, btw), can get this far ?

Not necessarily. Puzzles are puzzles, regardless of the game, and once you learn how to dance around monsters, the combat becomes less difficult. Also, he's been playing for months, so that alone means he's not a beginner anymore.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Our friend Don Adan's fave fighting technique is : save - try a fight round - reload if not satisfying.

Sounds like a waste of time.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Add to this he abuses of invisibility spell

That's actually quite smart (I've never used even used it ).

Originally Posted by meynaf

has slowed down the game to solve a puzzle (!)

Yep, that's outright cheating alright

Originally Posted by meynaf

asked a few people for help (you knew that already for yourself)

He only asked me for some general playing tips.

Originally Posted by meynaf

repeatedly tried to worm information out of me (by mail)

As if that would get him anywhere

Originally Posted by meynaf

has looked in the data files for getting info (and lied when i asked him how he got all the game's key names)

That sucks

Originally Posted by meynaf

and is strongly suspected of cheating by other means (code and/or save alterations, simple dungeon mapper).

Doesn't sound good

Originally Posted by meynaf

Is all that playing it fair ?

If it's all true, then yes, it's cheating. Very uncool

I've noticed a problem in the dungeon at that test that has two parts (the one you access from the Hall of Champions safe area). There's a button in the poison area that doesn't seem to work (no button press sound). Bug?

To Don:

Come on man, play fair. Much more fun that way

[Thorham]

Progress update

Halk:

Fighter: 1st Master
Ninja: 2nd Master
Priest: Expert
Wizard: 2nd Master

Cleared the Hall of Champions (including both Cursed Armors), except for some possible strays I've missed. Killed a Stone Giant. Tried to kill the Stone Giants in the safe area (remember the exploit?), but they seem immortal Used up every last Worm Round I had. Killed the first Dragon. Killed all the red flying guys which do damage very quickly (area opened with the key that the Dragon drops). Killed a lot of Rock Piles on the Rock Pile level.

Next stop: Flying Snake level.