Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[ImmortalA1000]

Originally Posted by TEG

Some translation :


So this TURBO JET 1230 have a 68030 but memory conflict is present. Due to conception?

Indeed, to be clear then does every single trapdoor CPU accelerator on a system with more than 6mb RAM in total b0rk the PCMCIA or is it something that companies like Blizzard/Apollo etc had a workaround for?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000

Indeed, to be clear then does every single trapdoor CPU accelerator on a system with more than 6mb RAM in total b0rk the PCMCIA or is it something that companies like Blizzard/Apollo etc had a workaround for?

The "workaround" is to place the accelerator memory in 32-bit space on the board itself. It is not much of a workaround, really. However, such memory is then "typically" not auto-configuring (even though this could be arranged by faking a Zorro-III autoconfig mechanism), and thus requires additional firmware to get the memory into the system. P5 did not handle this correctly for the 1230, for example, as the memory entered the system *after* expansion, and thus exec ended up in chip memory. That got fixed with the B2060 later where memory was added early on such that exec and expansion could be placed in 32-bit memory.

[grond]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

P5 did not handle this correctly for the 1230, for example, as the memory entered the system *after* expansion, and thus exec ended up in chip memory. That got fixed with the B2060 later where memory was added early on such that exec and expansion could be placed in 32-bit memory.

Which revision of the Blizzard 1230? The Blizzard 1230 MK3 placed the local memory in conflict with the PCMCIA port while the Blizzard 1230 IV placed it in Z3 range. I don't know whether there were later revisions. So I guess you are referring to the Blizzard 1230 IV? I wasn't aware that it had such a fault. Now I feel less envious because my Blizzard from back in the day is only a MK3 (and has 8MB of RAM that won't go well with the now available useful PCMCIA expansions)...

[jizmo]

Originally Posted by No.3

Yes, I know, a lot of people will start with "costs too much" - but hey, look onto the A1200 mainboard, Commodore did so much crap with this, so the "costs too much" 'argument' is not valid.

I wonder following: Why did Commodore not place the CPU on a small card for the trapdoor expansion slot?

This is an interesting notion – why did not Commodore do this, nor manufacture the accelerator boards themselves to bundle with A1200s?

I was always quite happy about how it was possible to upgrade A1200 based on your wallet and needs, but as someone who purchased an accelerator board immediately, I now in hindsight can't help but to think I was sold an 68EC020 for no value whatsoever.

If the Commodore had infact had the modular CPU or accelerator card approach, they could have saved the money on the 020 and pass some of that savings for the benefit of customers as well. I don't think they would have minded getting a sizable chunk of that expansion card money either.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by jizmo

This is an interesting notion – why did not Commodore do this, nor manufacture the accelerator boards themselves to bundle with A1200s?

I was always quite happy about how it was possible to upgrade A1200 based on your wallet and needs, but as someone who purchased an accelerator board immediately, I now in hindsight can't help but to think I was sold an 68EC020 for no value whatsoever.

If the Commodore had infact had the modular CPU or accelerator card approach, they could have saved the money on the 020 and pass some of that savings for the benefit of customers as well. I don't think they would have minded getting a sizable chunk of that expansion card money either.

That would make sense if they also put a SIMM on such a ”CPU” card. But with connector, pcb, CpU, SIM your component cost is already a lot higher than what they released.

[Inner200k]

The A1200 was one of 4 Amigas I owned I can't say I was disappointed in it 'at the time' in fact it kicked my friends PC around like it was a kids toy, the most infamous of such slaps I gave him was was smooth scrolling, the funny part? even with the advent of my 3080ti and a CPU that so far beyond my old A1200 to the extent that it's just about laughable in comparison, the PC cannot even to this day scroll 'SMOOTHLY' there is always a jolt or jitter at some point, the sad part is I now have to put up with that in emulation too.

Maybe I should by a blitter chip for my PC -- LMAO!

[oscar_ates]

Your 3080ti is a 34 teraflops 32bits floating point arithmetic monster. That was not imaginable in Amiga times (90s)

[redblade]

Here we go again round 10

[Inner200k]

Originally Posted by oscar_ates

Your 3080ti is a 34 teraflops 32bits floating point arithmetic monster. That was not imaginable in Amiga times (90s)

Are you trying to say my Amiga emulator is terrified?

[Toni Galvez]

Hello everyone.

I must admit that I was very happy at the time I get my A1200, it was 1993 and the cost of it (a basic A1200 with no HD) was 80.000 Pesetas.

Later on, when I saw Doom on a 386 (it can't run ok on a full screen) I thought that something wrong with Amiga, because the basic A1200 can not handle it.

My configuration on 1997 was, A1200 with 50mhz 68060, 32MB fast ram, CDrom drive, Zip drive.

Finally, I was able to play Doom and Quake, but A1200 could be bundled with 030, 4mb fast ram, 40MB HD and DOOM in 1993/94, it would change the fate for Commodore.

My thoughts:

- If people payed more than 1000 Pounds for a 386 with 4Mb, HD and Sound Blaster.
Why Commodore set an A1200 bundle with a 030 accelerator with 4MB ram and 40MB Hard drive at that time? (1993).
- A1200 should have a High Density disc drive, 8 channels sound and much faster blitter.
- I know this is hard, but having to disconnect the 020 when you got an accelerator card is a missed opportunity to get the internal 020 as a co-processor.

It is clear that the basic A1200 was very underpowered at the time of release.

[reassembler]

I think I'm an anomaly. I picked up my A1200 fully boxed at a car boot sale in 1995 for £20!! What a deal and it was still a great demo scene/gaming machine at that point, especially for arcade stuff. Hard to have any buyer's remorse at that price. From memory, the floppy drive was broken and I pinched one out of an A500.

I would say that the reason for choosing a PC, a few years before, is that my Dad felt by the time he bought a monitor, hard disk and extra RAM the Amiga was getting close in price to a mid-range PC.

He was kind of right, but technology moved so fast back then that it felt like every 2 years your PC needed a complete overhaul anyway.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by Toni Galvez

H'

Finally, I was able to play Doom and Quake, but A1200 could be bundled with 030, 4mb fast ram, 40MB HD and DOOM in 1993/94, it would change the fate for Commodore.

You're basically describing the A4000/030 configuration.

[eXeler0]

It would have been tough to design a modular A1200 and sell it for less (or same) than the original price i guess. But IF they designed the mobo without CPU and even the base config was a 020 on a ”daughtercard” or CPU board- like how they did with the first A4000D then they could also offer variants like 1200/030 with lots of different mem (and CPU) configs.
Down the road, even their own 040 card…

but while all this seems technically doable, I dont really think it aligned with Commodore’s strategy. From their perspective they covered the high mid-high with the A4000 variants.
The A1200 was the affordable low end but if and how ppl upgraded it, Commodore left to third party companies like Phase 5 etc…
You could se bundles from dealers who added accelerators the A1200 but never anything official from Commodore.

[oscar_ates]

A1200 sales weren't great, then they try their last chance with CD32. That was also using AGA architecture. I wonder why they did not release it with 68030 and 1-2MB fast ram? I think management was totally inept

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by oscar_ates

A1200 sales weren't great, then they try their last chance with CD32. That was also using AGA architecture. I wonder why they did not release it with 68030 and 1-2MB fast ram? I think management was totally inept

Considering the A1200 was pretty much always out of stock for a good part of its commercial life, I doubt its sales weren't great.
It was on the path of the A500 succes before Commodore went bust. It isn't the reason why Commodore disapperead. The problem was elsewhere.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by oscar_ates

A1200 sales weren't great, then they try their last chance with CD32. That was also using AGA architecture. I wonder why they did not release it with 68030 and 1-2MB fast ram? I think management was totally inept

The ”whys” surrounding CD32 design decisions has been discussed so many times it could have its own forum ;-)
But the short version is probably that being Commodores ”last roll of the dice” they took what they had in-house, creating as little news stuff as technically possible for the CD32. AKIKO was an addition but it actually replaced several other chips in addition yo the required CD control logic, so in the end, also a cost saving thing to add.
From an engineering perspective, crippling the CD32 with no fast mem was a stupid decision, because it wasnt even designed to be easily or cheaply upgraded, so it was safe to assume the majority wouldnt ever expand it and the the games wouldnt be made for that expanded capability in mind.
If it was obvious it had the power to decently run FPS games of that era (even in 2*1o smaller screens, it would have been a serious improvement. (and probably encourage more A1200 owners to at least get fast mem expansions)
But regdless, then came PS1 and murdered everyone left standing. ;-)

[oscar_ates]

I read somewhere that David Pleasence said A1200 sales are not great in UK. If A1200 sales were good they would not release cd32 since both use similar chips. There are also stories like one of commodore manager had mattress in Philippines so they opened a factory there. Due to the US sales ban from xor patent issue they could not pay the Philippines fab. CD32s produced for US market stayed there and was confiscated by the government. What a state of affairs

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Toni Galvez

Finally, I was able to play Doom and Quake,

I find it funny (and a little bit bitter), how people are not fair to the Amiga line of computers.
Amiga was not BUILT to run the games of that types.

And instead of appreciating, that this computer, can even run Doom, or Quake, and especially the fact that it can run it with same or less amount of money that you need for PC, should make us all appreciate it even more.

Amiga didn't had a chance to prove itself in (realtime) 3D field. If Commodore lived longer, and had a smarter management, and if we could get an Amiga machine built for 3D stuff, then the righteous comparison could be made.

But, I repeat, even in this scenario, Amiga proved how awesome it's architecture is, running the software that was not supposed to be run at the first place.

[lesta_smsc]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

But, I repeat, even in this scenario, Amiga proved how awesome it's architecture is, running the software that was not supposed to be run at the first place.

This, as you have rightfully pointed out, is what we should be focusing on! The Amiga was much ahead of its time for what hardware was able to achieve at a *fraction* of the cost of other hardware available at the time for similar endeavours.

I think being disappointed isn't accurate term, now that I have an A1200 (which I only saw at my cousin's house growing up), I have impressed by what you're able to do with it, not just as stock machine, but then adding accelerators really pushes it to its limits. Remember PCs were not able to achieve much without dedicated graphics card.

Well done Amiga team - let down by management team but not development team!

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Considering the A1200 was pretty much always out of stock for a good part of its commercial life, I doubt its sales weren't great.
It was on the path of the A500 succes before Commodore went bust.

That's an extremely optimistic projection. The market situation during A500's boom in Europe was completely different than in A1200's time. A500 had very little competition, seeing as PCs were lame and consoles expensive between 1987-91 here, plus it was cutting edge and A1200 not so much. But later on PCs had beefed up on the gfx/fx front, and prices had changed drastically, month-by-month.

So even if they had full warehouses I doubt they would manage to sell more than 1-2 mil, and even that in the grand scheme of things would be just a blip.

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

I find it funny (and a little bit bitter), how people are not fair to the Amiga line of computers.

What I find bizarre is this reluctance in accepting reality and being happy about what we've had in a certain time frame (and now have again).

There is nothing "unfair" (nor derogative) about being realistic and stating the facts about other games/platforms. If I applied this mindset I would have stuck with my beloved ZX Spectrum, never bought C64 and soon after Amiga, and now spend my time inventing endless rationalizations and what ifs about Sir Clive, QL/Coupe, and what have you.

Instead I prefer to move on and enjoy and celebrate all the platforms for what they were - and are now again. Don't be bitter, be happy