10 May 2024, 23:53 | #241 |
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Sorry about all the tape loading stuff. I'll try to slow down on that conversation.
It's just that loading from tape has something nostalgic for me, as I did not have a disk drive for my C64 until after 2010. So, I still like to load in games from tape on my real C64 connected to an old CRT even to this day. Just watching the loading screen, listening to the loading music, playing the game, etc. It's a bit crazy to wait a couple of minutes for a game to load, but then again - this is a forum about a 40 year old computer so err, maybe not that crazy all things considered I've suppose I have given evidence that people can check for themselves and offered my side of the equation. I'm not sure what will be gained by continuing to discuss endlessly about it, as I am quite sure that no amount of extra data will change anyone's mind any more than it already has. |
11 May 2024, 00:02 | #242 |
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Extrapolating from ZX Microdrive (120kbps @76cm/s) compact cassette should be able to deliver approx 7.5kbps so even 4000 bits per second is still far from magnetic tape maximum...
My mistake - seem stereo (2 track) approach was used - so 4000bps it close to max. Last edited by pandy71; 11 May 2024 at 00:10. |
11 May 2024, 00:10 | #243 |
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I loved the microdrive. I never had a ZX-Spectrum, but did use my dad's QL for a few years before getting my C64 and that had microdrives built in. Always enjoyed those little carts, even though they apparently were quite finicky
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11 May 2024, 10:14 | #244 | |||||||||||
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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Sorry but something has to go ! Quote:
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I have processed 98% of the Amstrad CPC commercial tapes on my own, you simply did 1% of the whole C64 commercial tape catalogue. Regarding the speed of the C64 tapes, considering the light weight of the programs, it remains slow. the CPC loads faster bigger sized programs. Quote:
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Sorry, but i beg to differ. Quote:
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Robocop C64 is small and lighter than the CPC version (and buggy, but that's another problem). If the C64 had to load as much data as the CPC does for its version, it would take 5 minutes more. [quote]Note: Freeload is but one example, there are plenty more commercial tape loaders on the C64 that exceed 2000 baud. Quote:
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You can take my word as the CPC wiki informations were written by me ! |
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11 May 2024, 11:25 | #245 | |
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But once you've deviated away from a generic "cassette" tape format, you can obviously reach much higher speeds. Tape would go on to be used for high capacity server backups for quite some time. |
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11 May 2024, 11:33 | #246 |
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@those who read this thread regarding the loading speed:
"Basil Private Detective" on Amstrad CPC use the "Gremlin Loader 1". Its title screen take 65 seconds to load; it's 16 kilobytes long, so we get 2020 bits per second. A baud is an average bit/second; Those 65 seconds are pretty much what the timings (623:1183 T) were implying (3500000/(623+1183)=1937,98). This just one example from many.... |
11 May 2024, 18:12 | #247 |
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Things are more complicated from at least 40 years...
Sorry for being nite picker but baud is NOT bit per second - it can be more bits per second - depends on modulation you are using - usually nowadays baud is replaced by other term: symbol rate - if you are using QPSK modulation then you can store in one baud 2 bits of information - using M-FSK/FDM modulation you can store more bits, same for PAM (pulse amplitude modulation) PAM4 used for example in modern RAM interfaces allow to store in one baud 2 bits of information. At some cases you can have something like 4096 QAM - single baud carry 12 bits of information, you can use even 32768 QAM so 15 bits in single baud. |
11 May 2024, 19:21 | #248 |
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I don't see how "Amstrad vs C64 baud rates" have anything to do with the thread title. At all.
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11 May 2024, 19:55 | #249 | |
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This will be my last post about loading speeds.
Not because I think I'm wrong, but because this discussion is clearly not going to progress from here. Well, that and I do agree this is getting too far off topic. I mean, you could argue that slow loading times were a bad thing for the industry I supose, but it's tangential at best. Note: this post used to be much longer, but I don't see the point of arguing on and on, so I cut most of it out. I only left the video I made showing that loading on the emulator is the same speed as a real C64. Quote:
[ Show youtube player ] Last edited by roondar; 11 May 2024 at 20:56. |
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11 May 2024, 22:05 | #250 |
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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Thanks for this video. This is more akin to what i have here than the videos i usually see here and there.
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11 May 2024, 23:57 | #251 |
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Just for fun, the 128k Spectrum version of Elite loads just shy of 5 minutes. The problem is that each version has massive variations between platforms. Some have missions, some not. Some have more enemy ships, some less.
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12 May 2024, 07:10 | #252 |
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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In other words, some versions are bigger than others.
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12 May 2024, 10:05 | #253 | |
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12 May 2024, 14:05 | #254 | |
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Both the CPC and C64 tape units have wide bandwidth read amps so they should both be able to get high bit rates with non-standard 'turbo' loaders. Some other machines are not so lucky. |
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12 May 2024, 14:07 | #255 |
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14 May 2024, 11:06 | #256 | |
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Unfortunately for you and your comparisons you have failed to mention 2 things. There is no such thing as a defined speed of loading on C64 as even early 1984 that far exceed the loading speed of the fastest CPC tape OR disk loaders, the myths have been busted and put up on youtube years ago lol The mechanism and components of the C2N are of a higher quality/better design than the CPC tape deck as far as consistent motor speed and wow/flutter of audio signal read by the heads. Also worth noting there are only a few examples of loading music on the CPC (Booty and Druid) and they are very simplistic audio coding routines on a par with the Rolf Harris Stylophone and nothing like title screen/in game CPC music so nowhere near as modifiable as the C64 can accommodate for software tape/disk loaders. So all these "C64 games take longer to load" are the babblings of people who don't have the experience of all systems to make any comparisons worth reading. I doubt loading the disk release of Elite is much faster on CPC than C64 so this is also true for disk load times possible being inferior. I write for actual wikipedia, have done so since the first year that site was started (Robin Matthews) so we can all play that game, CPC wiki is just a group of lines of text from people who don't know much about any rival system so it's only useful for info about the CPC in isolation anyway. But as I said people hold onto myths because it helps keep their own opinions in a comforting happy happy joy joy alt reality At least if one person had mentioned the 1984 cost reducing of C2N without warning press/consumers by Gould's Commodore and how it made loading of Revenge of the Mutant Camels turbo loader 'iffy' I might bother to come back to this thread but it appears it's the same old factually incorrect 'problems' dredged up by people who don't know enough about all systems to be worth reading is going to go on forever as they ignore myth busting vids already out there lol. In the mouth of madness indeed. |
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14 May 2024, 11:30 | #257 |
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Obviously, loading speed is a relatively small factor in which machine was better. But, since we've got into it, I'll add a tiny bit more.
Having music or little games to enjoy while a game is loading was something almost exclusive to the C64, but it was still pretty rare even there (the little Space Invaders game on a lot of Mastertronic reissues, for instance). Are there any videos comparing C64 cassette loading times with Amstrad disk loading times? I'm highly doubtful of the notion that any game loaded faster from C64 tape than Amstrad disk, though if anyone can prove me wrong I'm only too keen to learn. I suspect that Amstrad disks are usually faster than C64 disks, in fact. I've seen enough to suggest that, when comparing games that were available for both systems, the C64 version loads faster, more often than not - often by about a third. However, I wonder if it'd be the same if you compared 100 random games from each system, say the top voted 100 (that are available on cassette) from Lemon64 verses the highest rated 100 (that are available on cassette) on CPC Games Reviews. However, C64 games which also have a CPC version are probably faster on average than those that don't, for two reasons: Firstly, turbo loaders which overcame the default 300 baud on the C64 didn't really take off until around the time the CPC launched, so most C64 games that were too early to have an Amstrad version will often be the slowest loading - I've seen early C64 games take a good 15 minutes to load. Also, games that were originally designed for C64 disks will often be a mess to load from tapes (or heavily cut down) and very few of those will have Amstrad versions (on tape or disk). All the same, I'd be happy to wait an extra three minutes if the game is better, and that's leading us into 100 different and probably more controversial comparisons. Still, nobody forms an opinion of the Amiga based on (to pick 3 random lame ST ports) Bionic Commando, Army Moves and OutRun (which generally played the same on both Amiga and ST) so we certainly shouldn't judge the Amstrad based on the Spectrum ports, which generally played better on the Spectrum as the screen resolutions were different (Spectrum had 256x192 in 8+7 colours, Amstrad either 320x200 in 4 or 160x200 in 16) (note that very few pure Spectrum ports score more than 6 on CPC Games Reviews, and a high proportion of the 9s and 10s are games which don't even exist on the Spectrum). Speaking as a former Spectrum owner who still loves the system. Last edited by Megalomaniac; 14 May 2024 at 12:00. |
14 May 2024, 11:57 | #258 | |||||||
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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CPC Ikari/buggy boy are NOT using fast loaders. They are using standard normal blocks, the equivalent of the slowest C64 rom blocks.
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2) The CPC seems to load slower games equipped with fast loaders because softwares on this machine are bigger in size than those on the C64 (smaller and more simplistic). 3) The CPC disk loaders are faster than anything you have on C64. It's a 3inches 300RPM drive. Quote:
I agree regarding the motor speed, it is indeed using a stable motor speed. Regarding the Audio signal, the CPC has way more interesting copy protections on its tapes than what you got on the C64. The schemes are over simplistic on this machine. On the CPC, i have found much more devilish and complex/complicated schemes that a C64 just could not support or use. Quote:
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I have around 20 original games on C64, i dumped them and preserved them. They are at least 50-60kb lighter than their CPC versions, which are much bigger in size to load. Quote:
The 300 RPM drive of the CPC loads Elite in 90 seconds. The C64 disk version takes much longer to load. Quote:
what i know is that the C64 people very badly know the Amstrad CPC, while the opposite is not true. Quote:
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14 May 2024, 12:10 | #259 | ||||||||
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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A same title using fast loader on both computer would do the trick. Quote:
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For example, Robocop will load faster on the C64, due to its smaller size, the fact that the game is splitted in 3 program blocks, one for each part, while the CPC version is much bigger in size, and if the player has 128kb, you have all the blocks to load + the block that contains the ditigized voices, that the C64 miss completely. Quote:
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14 May 2024, 12:42 | #260 |
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i reached to pass the glorious C64 years with just the datassette here
i added an Action Replay MKV when it was released back then, and the combo was perfectly fine for me still great to use to do loading comparisons, having a wide data-rate savings on tape, turbo and superturbo mode on floppy drive, standard, turbo and warp mode sometime using the superturbo on tape leaded to a faster loading than the standard loading on floppy still using all this on Vice now Last edited by kremiso; 14 May 2024 at 14:52. |
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