22 June 2020, 08:57 | #181 |
Inviyya Dude!
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@Nishicorn:
Your post is basically just technical stuff everyone knows here already anyway. There are literally hundreds of pages about these discussions in this forum alone. And on "why even create this": Well, with your argument we could all just stop creating new games for the Amiga. Or even stop the whole retro gaming scene from creating something. There is literally no genre where there are not like a dozen high quality entries existing. Does that mean we should not have fun creating some in the vein of what is already existing? Especially for the Amiga, where a brawler game of the quality that Metro Siege seems to have does not exist. If you are so against new games that imitate classic ones for the Amiga, you should simply avoid these threads, probably. It doesn't seem to be your cup of tea, and that's completely fine. But don't shit on the efforts of people who are having fun with this. |
22 June 2020, 11:25 | #182 | |
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Most of this has been discussed quite often. So, I won't go into technical details or argue about such points. However, there is one tiny tidbit I do want to reply to as I've heard it several times before and find it really interesting that this point is sometimes made.
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The pixel size of Amiga graphics (i.e. it's "native resolution") is always smaller than the equivalent SNES mode. Which means the Amiga always uses a higher resolution than the SNES. However, on the Amiga games don't have to use the full screen, so some games do indeed use fewer on screen pixels than SNES games do. However, the most commonly used SNES resolution is so low (256x224 pixels) that the majority of Amiga games actually still display more pixels. ------ But other than this minor point, I fully agree with Steril. In fact, I'd rather say why not make this? Retro game development is not about making the next big thing or making things that outdo the very best of what is already available. Rather, it is about making nice stuff for systems that have long since passed into obscurity. It's a hobby and maybe even an art-form. It does not need to serve any purpose other than making the developers/artists/musicians happy and offering something fun to play for the retro community. I honestly and in full seriousness never got this "why make it" attitude. IMHO, we should be happy that people want to invest in these old platforms and expand our common hobby. And if you're not into new retro games - well, fair enough. But in that case, simply ignore it. Basically, I see no need to potentially demotivate others just because you're personally not interested. Especially not here, as this game looks to be quite good. IMHO what I've seen so far would not look at all out of place on say the Mega Drive or PC-Engine. |
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22 June 2020, 11:33 | #183 |
Inviyya Dude!
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This game looks utterly amazing, imo.
And would not look out of place on a SNES. Great job done by everyone involved.. |
22 June 2020, 11:37 | #184 | |
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22 June 2020, 12:07 | #185 | ||
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You also contradict yourself:
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22 June 2020, 12:10 | #186 |
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I consider it a blessing that amazing, new software and hardware is coming out for the miggy.
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22 June 2020, 17:31 | #187 | |
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Beat em ups like this, are almost no existing on the Amiga (even Aga). Golden Axe was good port, but (imho) just an average beat em up, and that's about it. Final Fight, you mentioned, is very bad port in terms of play-ability, nowhere close to the arcade. There s few honorable mentions like: Motorhead, or Franko... but they are just that... "honorable mentions", not some ultra quality beat em up. So, asking why we need a game in the most avoided genre on the Amiga, is funny. |
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23 June 2020, 02:13 | #188 | |
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Quote:
Because it's old and we've all seen it before, and since we're not dead just yet, we like to make new things and see new things and try new things. I will say though, this was quite an extensive post Nishicorn, you clearly spent a lot of effort on it, thanks for taking that much time out to contribute to the discussion! Oh, and has anyone in this thread said "why bother, just get a Rasberry Pi" yet? There I think I just did, feels good to get that out of the way. Now we just need someone to say Vampires are not real Amigas and the thread will be complete... (Pardon the sarcasm folks, I can't help it sometimes.) |
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23 June 2020, 10:16 | #189 | |
CaptainM68K-SPS France
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23 June 2020, 11:35 | #190 |
Inviyya Dude!
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I checked a lot of SNES screenshots for counting colours (without palette copper changes), and usually we are within 64 to 90 colours for a typical SNES game.
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23 June 2020, 12:01 | #191 |
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Probably has to do with the fact that on the MD/PC-Engine/SNES the colour palette is not unified but split up into "sub palettes", each containing 16 colours (well, 15 really as one is transparent). This means you might need duplicate colours. The Amiga's palette isn't big enough to compensate for this, but if run in 32 colour mode you do get some benefit of having a unified palette rather than a bunch of separate ones.
Might also be because the SNES supports several screen modes and many of them don't support 256 colours. Anyway, with games like Metro Siege (or indeed your own game, Inviyya) we can see that having a smaller palette does not need to mean games that look like they're using only a few colours. More colours is obviously nicer, but you can still get great results even when using only around 16 of them. |
23 June 2020, 12:39 | #192 | |
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16 is really a sweet spot for me there. Those 7 colours in dual playfield are just not enough, but on the other side it's hard to properly utilize 32 colours in a way that you can immediately grasp that the image looks much better for it. The jump from 8 colours to 16 is tremendous. From 16 to 32 not so much anymore. Or maybe I just suck at it.. |
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23 June 2020, 13:11 | #193 | |
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As for SNES and A500 - the uninitiated forget and lump the SNES, A500 and MD in the same boat when they're in different generations - the fact that the A500 can compete with the others is testament to just how f*cking good the machine was for it's time. You wouldn't expect a PS3 to compete with a PS4 so why do the same for retro machines created across a decade just because they have the same number of bits in CPU architecture. So massive kudos from me to anyone developing for the A500 (regardless if I like the game genre or not). |
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23 June 2020, 13:18 | #194 | |
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23 June 2020, 13:53 | #195 |
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23 June 2020, 14:45 | #196 |
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Wait, everyone, look, listen to what the expert has to say
Please show us all the 100% original Amiga games you have created? I've seen your other posts, all you do is criticize and give shit, but what do you do for the community? Absolutely nothing. Last edited by Bren McGuire; 23 June 2020 at 14:51. |
23 June 2020, 17:50 | #197 | |
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Having said that, Amiga OCS games rarely display only 16 colors. Using sprites and copper tricks you can signifficantly raise the colour count on screen (and not only for cheap rainbow-skies effects but also in regards to the gfx used - as showcased with Metro Siege for example). This is also one of the main reasons Amiga game graphics manage to hold up pretty well against Mega Drive and SNES. Which is something you definitely cannot 100% claim for Atari ST games f.e. (even if the difference is not chaotic). When I first saw Mike's original mockup (which led to us kickstarting the project) I just couldn't believe this was possible with the main game running at '16 colors' only. Testament to the things you can achieve. In regards to dual playfield I guess that the same could be claimed. I think there's a lot yet to be discovered. Very skilful artists and again with the above mentioned tricks (and serious palette management), can possibly mask and overcome these restrictions. There are also many modern game art styles, from monochromatic, to '8-bit retro', to generally minimalistic or obscure that could easilly cope with split 8 color palettes and still produce a gorgeous result. Loads of untapped potencial here. |
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23 June 2020, 18:01 | #198 |
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24 June 2020, 02:06 | #199 | |
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I think we need to get over the 90's habit of counting colours, it's counter-productive. Total palette size makes a big difference of course, but the Amiga does really well on that front - 4096 colours is more than sufficient (not luxurious, but sufficient). Out of interest, can the AGA machines do 16/32 colours, but picking from the larger AGA palette? (262,000 right?) and does picking from a larger palette use any more memory? |
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24 June 2020, 06:18 | #200 |
J.M.D - Bedroom Musician
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Well, the AGA palette is 24 bit, the 262,144 number of colors is given from the physical number of pixels in the screen in PAL Hi-res.
[that is at least the way it was explained in some italian magazines in the 90s] Plus, in AGA the dual playfield is made of two sets of four bitplanes, hence you have 32 colors on screen by base without copper effects. Last edited by saimon69; 27 June 2020 at 03:02. |
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