Do you like or dislike Cloanto/Amiga Forever?

[kolla]

Originally Posted by gulliver

Those sources are in a very pitifull state:



1. Some components are missing.

2. A compiler required is no longer available.

3. The building scripts are severely broken.

4. It contains material which is "no mans land" from a legal standpoint, like the V42 components which were done post Commodore bankruptcy.



It could be good as a learning experience, and could be used to rebuild some specific components, but is far from complete. It is a leftover mess.



Cloanto could right now release all AmigaOS versions, both in source and binary/executable form, prior to, and including 1.2 without any legal risk, as they are not part of the lawsuit. Why haven't they?

You know perfectly well, or if you don't, you must be unusually ignorant for someone who is acting as a spokes person for the 3.1.4 project, with access to the sources.

The simple fact is that Clonto never had (legal) access to the sources, nor did their license grant any such rights. Heck, when Hyperion were granted rights to develop from OS 3.1, they too did not get sources from Amiga. Ask Olsen. The sources for 1.2 etc are long lost, and only possible to somewhat reconstruct, by walking back commits in the OS 3.1 sources. Which is no simple task at all. Again ask Olsen.

[kolla]

http://web.archive.org/web/199806111.../~uae/meeting/

http://web.archive.org/web/199806111.../~uae/#Credits

[malko]

Originally Posted by kolla

[...] People hassle Cloanto for "encrypting" the kickstarts, but that was something they were pushed to do by the rights holders at the time, and not something they came up with all by themselves. [...]

That is an interesting statement. Do you have any documents to validate it?

[kolla]

https://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145

Some original technical limitations, which were in part a legacy of a 1997 wish by some licensors that Amiga Forever not compete with the sale of "real" upgrade ROMs for Amiga computers, were later removed. These restrictions were implemented by using some "illegal opcodes" and a ROM endoding combined with a "rom.key" file, support for which was added to the UAE and Fellow emulation projects in 1997. Amiga Forever Plus Edition now includes the full set of original unencoded Amiga ROMs, including WHDLoad-compatible files.

[kolla]

From early WinUAE changelog...
(http://www.emulatronia.com/txt/uae0817.txt)

In Release 1 - November 9, 1997
==============================================================================
- IMPORTANT: Use Picasso96 1.31 now.  It is great, and includes the UAEGFX
  card drivers in its installation script.

- Picasso stuff mostly re-written for compatibility with the UN*X
  implementation that Bernd Schmidt has done.  Things seem to work better,
  but slightly slower again.  Watch for more updates.

- Support for Cloanto's "Amiga Forever" encrypted ROMs.

- Various GUI changes, some options removed to stay in sync with the UN*X
  version.

- 68000 versions (uae.exe and uaec.exe) now included.  uaec.exe is the
  more compatible of the two, but is approximately 20% slower.

[kolla]

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!...sc/aVG_i1WVwsY

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by kolla

I guess that the main motivation for rewriting the entire printer system in OS 3.1.4, was to get rid of Cloanto code that is there in 3.1.

No, and don't spread such idiotic conspiracy theories. The reason why we didn't went for the 3.1 printing system is because it didn't work with rtg graphics. That is really it. You were not part of the process, you cannot know, but then don't speculate.


Besides, Hyperion holds a development license on 3.1, which makes the 3.1 sources available.



It is neither the 3.9 printing system because we don't have it, but something that works better than the 3.9 version. What is from 3.9 are the hp printer drivers which were contributed by Olaf.


Kolla, seriously: What is just wrong with you? You are so full of hate, I wonder what went wrong in your life. You seem like a very frustrated guy who tries to blackmouth whomever gets in your way.

[kolla]

You are a psycho-analyst now?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by kolla

You are a psycho-analyst now?

I'm asking you a serious question. Kolla - what is just wrong with you that you attempt to spread false rumors, conspiracy theories and alike here? If you don't know, you don't know.

[kolla]

Nothing is wrong with me, and little or nothing of what you attribute to me is true or real. So why do you have a need to accuse me if these things? And if think all you just listed is true, please be specific with examples.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by kolla

Nothing is wrong with me

Then, why do you make claims like the above? What is your motivation of making such false claims and accusements public?

Originally Posted by kolla

and little or nothing of what you attribute to me is true or real.

Go above. Read your statement.

Originally Posted by kolla

So why do you have a need to accuse me if these things?

Go above. Read your statement.

Originally Posted by kolla

And if think all you just listed is true, please be specific with examples.

Specific with examples? Kolla, I'm not posting source code here, because I cannot, and you know that.


The printer.device is based on v40.16, which was an internal release for Os 4, at its very beginning. It was developed from there on into the v45 release you see now. Note that 40.16 is not based on the Os 3.9 version, but on the v39.6 version which shipped with 3.0. There was never a v40 version from CBM. V44 (H&P) was a dead end.


So much for "we rewrote printer to keep Cloanto away". Os 4 is at release 53-something, which was not a suitable basis either because it would have required back-porting to 68K and it depended on many Os-4-isms which made the task hard.


That's all I can say. There is no hidden agenda here. The motivation was to provide the best possible Os we could with the components we had available, and the workforce we had available.

[LongLifeA1200]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

Cloanto's own admission regarding Kickstart ROMs, Workbench and emulators being available before Amiga Forever.

Originally Posted by kolla

Available from whom?

Certainly not Cloanto or Amiga Inc. (or other names they went by).

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

Ever think about what you're really supporting? A company with not enough capital (nor incentive) to do much with the IP.

Originally Posted by kolla

As I wrote, I never "supported" them much to begin with, I have little or no need for their software.

But you defend them like you do.

Originally Posted by kolla

But... You do realize how utterly lame this statement of yours is? Amiga OS was not "their IP" until quite recently, it was Amiga Inc.

I don't realize. Because those companies are one and the same.

Originally Posted by kolla

Having this option to point at, also took away pressure from UAE developers who had been in heat from people who also saw emulation as "illegal".

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

What people? Cloanto a.k.a. Amiga Inc.?

Originally Posted by kolla

Dumbasses online, such as yourself, who were screaming for blood as they saw their beloved Amiga OS running ontop of other systems, including that evil incarnated one by anti-christ Bill Gates.

The community that wanted emulation also wanted it to be stopped? "You are now entering... the Twilight Zone."

Originally Posted by kolla

It was not Amiga Inc back then, it was Amiga Technologies and Amiga International.

Different names over time, but same agenda.

Originally Posted by kolla

And they had nothing to do with Cloanto other than having an agreement, a contract, regarding distribution of AmigaOS to be used with emulators.

Oh, is that all.

Originally Posted by kolla

People hassle Cloanto for "encrypting" the kickstarts, but that was something they were pushed to do by the rights holders at the time, and not something they came up with all by themselves.

Nothing to do with the other, eh?

Originally Posted by kolla

Providing legal means of obtaining Amiga kickstarts and OS at very reasonable prices for more than 2 decades

Read: Charge money for something that was already available (nor provided by them) and does nothing to fund new hardware.

Originally Posted by kolla

No, not at all. On the contrary, Cloanto was contributing _for_ the right of emulators to exist, against the mentioned dumbasses.

They needed them to be made so they could charge for the Kickstart ROMs. You make it sound like Cloanto/Amiga Inc. was trying to doing the world a favor, as if there'd be no emulation today without them.

Originally Posted by kolla

But I do recognize what Cloanto has done for the platform, and their long involvement.

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

And what might that be?

Originally Posted by kolla

contributing to development by contracting UAE developers

Some proof of that would be nice.

Originally Posted by kolla

hosting and sponsoring UAE developer meetings

Because fans of the computer don't meet up already, right?

Originally Posted by kolla

getting hold of Amiga hardware for developers to test and improve their emulation code against

Only Cloanto had the goods and was the only one willing to share, right?

Originally Posted by kolla

providing the P96 support that was close to being abandoned at one point...

I see Brian King's name being mentioned there, not Cloanto's.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Then, why do you make claims like the above? What is your motivation of making such false claims and accusements public?

Why not, it is my guess, just as I wrote it. Am I not allowed to make guesses and share them? The sad part is that it is not at all a very wild or far fetched guess. And it is not a conspiracy theory, you should perhaps look up what that term actually entails.

Go above. Read your statement.

So you are saying that my guess is wrong. And add to it that my guess is an accusation, a false claim, a conspiracy theory and whatever else that you can come up with. And top it off by suggesting I have mental issues? Well played.

Specific with examples? Kolla, I'm not posting source code here, because I cannot, and you know that.

No, specific examples of where I repeatedly have been doing all the things you suggest, and where I indeed have been wrong. You have earlier pointed at Apollo Core project - but was I ever really wrong about anything? I have received quite a few messages and responses from others who, over time, have concluded that all my "whining" for most part was spot on. I have also shared my thoughts about what is happening regarding Hyperion and Cloanto etc, and it is rather sad to see that things play out pretty much as I expected, even to the point of Jens saying he will leave Amiga.

The only surprising action for me, has been your willingness to get entangled with Hyperion and your strong belief in Hyperion's case. That was a "wow" moment for me.

The printer.device is based on v40.16, which was an internal release for Os 4, at its very beginning. It was developed from there on into the v45 release you see now. Note that 40.16 is not based on the Os 3.9 version, but on the v39.6 version which shipped with 3.0. There was never a v40 version from CBM. V44 (H&P) was a dead end.

Of course, the reworked the printer.device was one of the most sought for updates, the number of users asking for printer updates were staggering and highly justified the effort. Right? I recall something else, surprise and quite a bit of confusion over why the team would spend so much time and effort on fixing something that barely anyone use in the first place, and for supporting hardware (printers) that close to extinct.

So, what can you say about Cloanto's contributions to OS 3.1? Are they still present in OS 3.1.4, or not?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by kolla

The only surprising action for me, has been your willingness to get entangled with Hyperion and your strong belief in Hyperion's case. That was a "wow" moment for me.

Again, you read much more into this than there really is behind it. I do not care who publishes code, or who drives development. But there are two things I need: A development licence, and I afraid Cloanto did not much to back up their possibility to provide such, and access to the source code. Ideally, even with later developments.



Again, I afraid that speaks against Cloanto. Hyperion holds a license I can read, source code I can access, and even later versions I can look into. Cloanto... well, the rights on 3.1 ROMs and 3.1 Workbench in binary form as I read it, but well, not much else there is a trace of. I did not find a document backing up their possibilites to work on 3.x, and Cloanto did not provide one. It was Hyperion that contacted me (not vice versa) and not Cloanto.



So, that is my evaluation of the situation. If Cloanto would have come along stating, "here is our document that gives us rights for you to work on 3.1", "here is the server where the sources are" and "here is your contract" - sure, it would have been Cloanto. But that did not happen. So this is where we are... again, very simple. No conspiracy.



This thread is silly by asking whether I like or dislike them. Honestly, I have no reason to dislike Cloanto - they threated me well so far. But that does not mean that I am a typical customer of their products. They rather seem to run a museum. That's fine with me, really, but not quite what is needed.



The believe I have in Hyperion's case is simply based on the papers I can read. Should Cloanto, at some point, publish better grounds that they have a development license either - very good. At this point.. insufficient information.

Originally Posted by kolla

Of course, the reworked the printer.device was one of the most sought for updates, the number of users asking for printer updates were staggering and highly justified the effort. Right?

Right. No, seriously. There was a request from beta-testers, ongoing, that this thing was broken. That was really the motivation. Yes, beta-testers drive the motivation and the development. If they tell me they want to use it, and if they tell me that the current status does not work, I'll fix it.


That is really it, there is nothing more behind it. If we had more or other beta testers, more or other parts would have been addressed. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by kolla

I recall something else, surprise and quite a bit of confusion over why the team would spend so much time and effort on fixing something that barely anyone use in the first place, and for supporting hardware (printers) that close to extinct.

Huh? Not really. Everything that speaks PCL is supported, which is much more than just HP printers. Many printers you can buy today speak PCL, and I would believe that most of them are supported. The differences between the various HP printer drivers is only the maximal resolution and the type of colorspace they support. Failing that, there is a postscript driver, that should also do well with most modern printers.


So, there we have the two big families of "openly accessible" specifications: PCL and PS.



Then, we have those printers that speak ESCp, which are supported by one of the Epson driver families.


And... that is pretty much it. If you are aware of any other printer specification that is available, point me to it. Everything else you find in the market today is based on a GDI-printer spec of some sort, and that is "closed". And by that I mean "closed specs". I wouldn't mind about sources, I mind about specs being available to work from.

Originally Posted by kolla

So, what can you say about Cloanto's contributions to OS 3.1? Are they still present in OS 3.1.4, or not?

I do not have access to Cloanto copyright, you know that. This being said, I do not even know what Cloanto did contribute to the Os in first place, if they did. As far as 3.x is concerned, that consisted on a collection of binary patches contributed by third parties. Whether these parties even had a development license is unclear to me, but we don't have these patches in any form, clearly. What happened is that we read the apparent list of bugs that seem to have been addressed in 3.x, and tried to reproduce, and where possible, addressed them by source level fixes.


Other than that, Cloanto did contribute with software in the past, yes. Some software I even use, like PPaint. So, what about that? Still works, of course. There was no intend to break their products, or any other third party products, just the reverse. It went so far that we shipped with intuition V40 because cybergraphics depends on intuition internals we do not know, and Frank did not work on Cybergraphics even though we offered support.

[number6]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

It was Hyperion that contacted me (not vice versa) and not Cloanto.

Thomas Richter's official presentation is that Hyperion had approached him via Olaf Barthel

Source

So this is accurate? They used Olaf as an intermediary to determine your interest?

#6

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by number6

So this is accurate? They used Olaf as an intermediary to determine your interest?

This is accurate. Olaf established the contact. Back then I was working on vamos (actually, it is now the foundation of the AmigaOs 3.1.4 build system) and had a question upon which I contacted Olaf, and explained the idea to have a vamos-driven build system for daily updates and automated builds. This then initiated the whole story.

I believe the question was on the shell-internal commands which are not part of vamos. The immediate outcome of this was/is a vamos version that runs the native Amiga shell, which then became a "Christmas present" for Christian Vogelsang. We met recently (he is also living in Erlangen) and had a nice chat, and I had the chance to organize another present for him for his work on vamos.

[designer77]

Amiga forever ! i waiting for mac os version

[Puggsy]

Cloanto is one parasitic person trying to screw over the Amiga community via copyright troling

[deladrevoc]

Thank you Mike, Cloanto rekindled my interest in Amiga, Amiga Forever gave me the drive to reacquire original hardware.

I hope the Steve Jones interview cuts you the slack I believe you deserve.

[LongLifeA1200]

Erm... you mean thank you engineers that made the Amiga and then thank you Bernd Schmidt, Brian King, Toni Wilen and so many others for UAE.

Originally Posted by deladrevoc

Thank you Mike, Cloanto rekindled my interest in Amiga, Amiga Forever gave me the drive to reacquire original hardware.

They say... Mike wears a cape with a twin rainbow check-mark and flys around the world delivering Amiga Computers as presents.