Myth: CPC and Spectrum = a different game?

[lilalurl]

Originally Posted by s2325

I think Double Dragon II for GameBoy is different game [ Show youtube player ]

Yes.

From MG:

The Game Boy version of "Double Dragon II" is an English localization of a "Kunio-kun" game (the Japanese franchise which inspired "Renegade" and "River City Ransom" and has nothing to do with the arcade and NES versions.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/double...ii-the-revenge


Seems like the original game was Nekketsu Kōha Kunio-kun: Bangai Rantōhen
http://www.mobygames.com/game/nekket...bangai-ranthen

[ Show youtube player ]

I'll change the entry and add conversion notes later or tomorrow, unless someone has something to add on the matter.

[DrBong]

Sorry to respond so late to an old post in this thread, but......

Originally Posted by lilalurl

On Mobygames, they recently decided to split the entries for Myth between a first entry with CPC and Spectrum versions and another entry for the others:

http://www.mobygames.com/forums/dga,...171415/#171415

Currently, HOL lists CPC and Spectrum as conversions.
However, if the games are really different as said in the quoted text, we should probably no longer list them and instead put a conversion note (as we do for Star Trek 25th or Total Recall).

Originally Posted by lilalurl

Still waiting for the opinion of members of the HOL core team on what to do in such a case.

I think MobyGames have got it terribly wrong! At the end of the day, if a publisher advertises a game as being released for several different platforms, then that should be the end of the story. For example, System 3 advertised Myth for the Spectrum, Amstrad, C64, Amiga and Atari ST in this advert:

http://goo.gl/EZw3E1

Why should game databases think that they know so much better than the original publishers (or developers, for that matter), and try to change history by saying that a particular conversion is different enough from the rest and therefore is not the same game??!!

Originally Posted by blindfold

About Myth: History in the Making: I the Amiga is close to C64, except the character. As for ZX Spectrum/CPC - the story, scenarios and even character this is the same. Actually everything is quite close. In my opinion differences are due technical limitations but it is the same game.

Precisely. IMHO, noticeable differences (superficial or otherwise) between advertised versions of a particular game would often have been due to technical limitations of some of the platforms in question, or poor/lazy coding by developers undertaking the conversion.

Originally Posted by Belgarath

I'd leave the conversions in personally, but under conversion notes, highlight the differences.

Sensible enough if the the differences are substantial, but I doubt we'd have the space to do much of this as we're limited to 255 characters IIRC.

[lilalurl]

Better late than never.


Answer in reverse order :

Conversion notes: We could ask RCK for more than 255 characters


I am more enclined to follow MobyGames' line of thought on this matter.
Funnily, the issue of differences between platforms recently was discussed there again recently:
http://www.mobygames.com/forums/dga,2/dgb,4/dgm,178498/

I think it's Pseudo_Intellectual who came up with the line of reasoning that if the same walkthrough can be used, it's the same game.

(Pseudo_Intellectual is a member/approver there btw)


Ofc, it raises the question of versions with additional levels. In that case, IMO if the remainder is similar then it is the game with a bit more.

A bit difficult to consider the maximum extent to which this should apply out of each specific examples.


To be a bit of a bother , currently for Robocop 3 we list on ST and DOS as conversion platforms and have conversion notes stating:
"Games with the same title were also released for ZX Spectrum, C64, NES, Super NES and Sega Master System, but are completely different."

However, judging from the last misc schot from the entry, the Spectrum and Amstrad releases were advertised by the publisher:
http://hol.abime.net/1262/miscshot


Here is the Spectrum version:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/zx-spectrum/robocop-3__

Apparently, there is no Amstrad version though (not even planned it seems)


Perhaps we could even find advertising for all the platforms (including consoles) in magazines that dealt with both computers and consoles?




I guess it will need a further discussion (between HOL members/supercontributors?).
I'll refrain from touching the entries meanwhile. Not sure which I edited already (should be listed here anyway) so I'll have to think about editing them back if we finally decide to follow your line of thought.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by lilalurl

Conversion notes: We could ask RCK for more than 255 characters

Better idea (to not break the layout that much): Point to a 'normal' note entry in the conversion notes if it's longer

I think (personal opinion) that if a game has a completely different gameplay (or even different genre/category) a note and maybe an omission from the conversion list should happen. If it basically has the same gameplay, but different levels and artwork, it should be listed as a standard conversion.

[DrBong]

Originally Posted by lilalurl

Conversion notes: We could ask RCK for more than 255 characters

I'd much prefer that, in order to detail major differences, than not list a legitimate conversion at all and, by doing so, trying to "re-write" history as such.

I am more enclined to follow MobyGames' line of thought on this matter.

Using the MobyGames logic, you do realise, then, that a number of Amiga coin-op conversions would not be considered "legitimate" conversions?? The reason being, is that technical limitations have made it necessary for the Amiga conversion to be quite different from the much more advanced original arcade machine. In such cases, "arcade" would have to removed from the list of conversions for a number of games in HOL. Would you agree with that logic??

Funnily, the issue of differences between platforms recently was discussed there again recently:
http://www.mobygames.com/forums/dga,2/dgb,4/dgm,178498/

"I think it's Pseudo_Intellectual who came up with the line of reasoning that if the same walkthrough can be used, it's the same game."

(Pseudo_Intellectual is a member/approver there btw)

He should become a Wiki moderator with that sort of logic......'nuff said!

Ofc, it raises the question of versions with additional levels. In that case, IMO if the remainder is similar then it is the game with a bit more.

What about the Amiga conversion of Space Harrier, then? The last 10 levels from the coin-op were missing and they ended up in a separate follow-up release (i.e. Space Harrier: Return To The Fantasy Zone).

http://amr.abime.net/review_23574 (see The Games Machine review also)

A bit difficult to consider the maximum extent to which this should apply out of each specific examples.

Precisely! Who decides where this all ends exactly??!! What serious game databases should remember is that they are meant to record/preserve the history of the games they detail, not try to "re-write" history in some weird likeness of the team or a team member/approver/moderator.

To be a bit of a bother , currently for Robocop 3 we list on ST and DOS as conversion platforms and have conversion notes stating:
"Games with the same title were also released for ZX Spectrum, C64, NES, Super NES and Sega Master System, but are completely different."

However, judging from the last misc schot from the entry, the Spectrum and Amstrad releases were advertised by the publisher:
http://hol.abime.net/1262/miscshot

Here is the Spectrum version:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/zx-spectrum/robocop-3__

No bother! I would agree with what's in HOL - there are always exceptions (albeit uncommon). This is an unusual case because Ocean seemingly managed to get worldwide licensing from Orion Pictures to release a RoboCop 3 game, for both computer and console platforms. I imagine due to technical restrictions, the 16-bit platforms all got a 3D game and the 8-bit platforms got a 2D game.

IMO the advert you refer to was just misleading/lazy advertising by Ocean for the 8-bit computer game (2D only). Here's the original Amiga/ST/PC advert for the 3D version of RoboCop 3:

http://goo.gl/grY0nz

Notice that only 3D screenshots from the 16-bit releases were shown in each advert!

Perhaps we could even find advertising for all the platforms (including consoles) in magazines that dealt with both computers and consoles?

In the uncommon instance of a single publisher for both console and computer platforms, perhaps......but I wouldn't bank on it because combined computer and console adverts in latter days weren't considered optimal for a few different reasons.

I guess it will need a further discussion (between HOL members/supercontributors?).

Yes - hopefully an IRC meeting will be on the cards in the not-too-distant future to discuss this amongst other matters.

Originally Posted by TCD

I think (personal opinion) that if a game has a completely different gameplay (or even different genre/category) a note and maybe an omission from the conversion list should happen. If it basically has the same gameplay, but different levels and artwork, it should be listed as a standard conversion.

What I think also, in a nutshell.

[s2325]

Maybe this small note about Microcosm should be added to HOL:

[lilalurl]

As far as the article goes I guess you are right.

However, as I have not played the game on any platform, I took a look at some videos.
Longplay for Amiga:
[ Show youtube player ]
Not much play and only at the end (but the only really relevant I could find) for FM Towns:
[ Show youtube player ]

To me the so-called 3rd person view of the CD32 seems only to be a graphically enhanced cursor (instead of a square in the FM Towns version).


Does the CD32 version provide an actual gameplay improvement on that point? For instance, if your ship cursor avoid an enemy hit you don't receive damage whereas in the FM Towns you get hit not matter if the cursor is hit or not?


If someone has knowledge of both version (or at least the FM Towns version) I'd be grateful to know more.

[s2325]

What about Locomotion http://hol.abime.net/904 and Loco? http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari...loco_3016.html

[s2325]

Bubble Dizzy http://hol.abime.net/225 was released on NES as Linus Spacehead [ Show youtube player ] but after first level gameplay is different.

[s2325]

I think Skull & Crossbones for NES is different game [ Show youtube player ]

[lilalurl]

Originally Posted by s2325

I think Skull & Crossbones for NES is different game [ Show youtube player ]

I agree. I skimmed the above video and this one (Amiga longplay):
[ Show youtube player ]

and the gameplay seems quite different (platform and fight for NES and beat'em up for Amiga).

MG has two different entries for the NES release and the other releases:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/nes/skull-crossbones_
http://www.mobygames.com/game/skull-crossbones



I'm game for a change in the entry. Any other opinion before I do that?

[s2325]

I think Santa's Xmas Caper http://hol.abime.net/1833 for C64 is different game [ Show youtube player ] http://www.lemon64.com/games/details.php?ID=2215 but for some reason have same title screen.

[lilalurl]

You seem to be right. Actually, all 8-bit versions (CPC, C64, ZX) seem to be shoot'em ups while the 16-bit (Amiga, DOS) versions are platformers.

MG has one entry for the 8-bit versions and one for the 16-bit versions:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/santas-xmas-caper
http://www.mobygames.com/game/santas-xmas-caper_

Here is a gameplay screenshot for the CPC version since MG only has one for the title screen:
http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=1871


I'll wait a few days and if nobody has anything to add, I'll remove the 8-bit versions for conversion while adding/modifying the notes to mention the differences.

[s2325]

I'm not sure about Vroom http://hol.abime.net/1598 for Sinclair QL http://www.rwapadventures.com/ql_wik...hp?title=Vroom Same coder but game is much older. And what about that strange typo on box?

[lilalurl]

That's very interesting.

I'll listen to the interview linked on the page you linked to when I have time, to get a definite opinion on the matter.

My guess is that QL Vroom (it is the name you can see on the loading screen in the gameplay video) is the original Vroom and that the Amiga/ST/DOS versions are actually an enhanced remake. A bit like Pirates Gold when compared to the original Pirates!.


So probably not to be included as a conversion but worth of a note in the entry.


Regarding the typo, I guess it is probably a mistake by the publisher (a bit like the Turricon crack? ).
We usually spell Vroom with a V but it would sound the same if it was written with a W, even though I have never seen it written with a W.

[lilalurl]

I have watched the interview:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6z...cre_videogames

3 points are especially interesting regarding Vroom:

06:53:
"Et si je prends la première version de Vroom qui s'est faite sur QL [...]"

-> "And if I take [as an example] the first version of Vroom, which was made on [Sinclair] QL[...]"


11:40:
Daniel Macré explains that his project with Vroom on QL was to do something similar to Pole Position (arcade game)

14:10:
"Et puis est arrivé le ST. Et je me suis dit, "bah ce que j'ai fait sur le QL, je vais le refaire sur le ST.""

-> "Then came the ST. I told myself: "Well, what I have done on QL, I am going to remake on the ST""




Therefore I still stand by my opinion posted above about the ST version (and conversions) being an enhanced remake of the original Vroom (QL).

Any other opinion?

[s2325]

What about Great Gianna Sisters for MSX2? It's commercial release but by different company http://www.generation-msx.nl/softwar...ters-the/2515/ [ Show youtube player ]

[s2325]

I think Last Action Hero http://hol.abime.net/837 for PC DOS [ Show youtube player ] is different game, just share some graphics.