Buying a new Amiga ? I need your help to know what is really avayable today ?

[Maverick357]

Sorry of boring you with question that will like stupid to you, but it is now more than 10 years that i have betray my lovely girlfriend (1 Amiga 500 and 1 Amiga 1200 sold for buying a pc) with an horrible pc (a 386 pc with 2 Mo, rapidly extended to an 486 + 40 Mo, needed for study at computer school).
So, i don't know any of today Amiga world aspect and need all informations that you can give me before i taking the right decision.

Ok, i have thincking seriously long time ago now, to change my computer back to an Amiga.
I am very addict to Amiga, a real fan, like a drugs, i can't stop to remember the good old time, (maybee is the Amiga the lost paradise ?).
I have a pc up-to-date, with 256 Mo of ram and all serious quality hardware that you can use on a pc like creative labs sound and graphics card, yamaha cd-writer, hd ide of 17 Gb, and if i don't change my computer, i will upgrade a lot with hd, zip drives, ect...

But i am not happy, windows 98 is a shit of OS and Linux is a little tricky for an beginner on this OS (and i like Linux for is stability, i have just try it a couple of weeks 1 year ago before i take the decision to change definitively to linux, now i am still running with winblows).

Just the introduction above for that you know what i have for a hardware computer today.

Emulators are fun to use, but will never replace the real thing, the real Amiga.
Wich have never got an real Amiga, can't understand that feeling !

Now here is the question that is very important to me.

1) Wich of Amiga must i buy (but think about it, if i buy an Amiga, it is not for only playing game for one year, i want keep it at least 10 years, using it every day for surfing internet, for write my letters, ect...).

a) the Amiga 1200 seem a pretty good choice, low price, but not very extensible and cannot use a svga monitor (and will never can be used for old games, video frequency are too low !).

b) The Amiga 4000 with i a good processor (68040) and more extensible. but i don't know if he can use a svga monitor and ide hds/cd-writer and zip drives.

c) The AmigaOne that will be usable for perfect emulation of classics Amiga and the futur Amiga.
Akira seem that he don't like it, but it seem for me that a new powerfull Amiga is a good idea.
Maybee Akira don't believe in that dream or else he is waiting that a more serious company will make it ?

d) For a best use of the Amiga and for the best extensibility, do i need another case, if yes witch one ?


2) For programming and games devellopement:
I am not only interest in commercial programming language, if you know shareware / freeware of good quality, you can tell me too.

a) What assembler does exist for programmer the 680xx processor and the ppc cpu ?
Is there any serious books (french or english) about the Amiga programming in assembly for the today hardware ?
And for the 680xx cpu ? And for the ppc cpu ?

b) What Language C does exist for an Amiga of today ?

c) The very good roms kernels (i had both of it for roms 1.3 and roms 2.0, 3 books with a black cover for version 2.0 if i remember good) does exist today ?
I have looking after on the internet site of addison-wesley but seem not avaible anymore.
Is there others very good books for Amiga programming ?

d) Is there any public domaine sources of programs (to see what an how to do) on internet ?



3) About games:

a) Is there any company that continue to devellop games today for Amiga ?



4) General questions:

a) What is the best company for buying extension cards for Amiga ?
For example: Turbo cards, memory extension card, ide and pci extensions card ?

b) Can i use some of my pc hardware on Amiga like hd, cd-writers (yamaha), joystick, video card, sound card, ect...

c) Is the Amiga always plug and play or it is now very difficult to extend him with new hardware ?

d) When i buy an new Amiga is the Amiga OS 3.5 or 3.9 that is shipped with (on cd-roms i suppose) or must be buying appart ?

Ok, i thing it is now enough question for this post.
I will shoot again after the first answears

I totally support Amiga, and I hope they pull it off (sorry Akira), but I don't think you should buy an Amiga at this point in time.

I think we should wait and see what happens. AmigaDE looks promising, but I'm not going to buy it until I see that it's actually of any use.

If you want a computer for productivity, then stick with the PC
If you want a computer for games, buy an Amiga 500

Always keep a look out on http://www.amiga.org and http://www.amiga.com for the latest info

*These opinions represent noone's but my own*

I sold my Amiga in 1996 and I didn't have any regrets at the time. When WinUAE came out I missed the apps and shit so I bought an Amiga 4000. Best thing I ever did.

As for the future buying off an Amiga...I dunno. Heard so many "big ideas" about the Amiga since Commodore went tits up that I'm of the opinion that they are moving away from the hardcore supporters and getting to the state of the PC.

I don't think this will work, hard as that is for me to say.

An Amiga 4000 went of ebay a week ago for just over £200, while you can get a brand new 1200 for £100. I'd stick to one of those personally.

[Paul]

I once heard something about an Amiga on a card, which slots into the PCs motherboard. I think I sore this in a magazine (was it PC Format?).

If such a card does exist and was of any good, this would be an alternative.

I would be interested in such a card as my A600 HD is on its last legs.

[Amiga1992]

Amigaboy you don't ned to be sorry, to each one its own.What they do now has nothing to do with hardware so ANY PC you have can 'become' Amiga powered. It's an OS only from now on, fer Jay's sake, so you don't need to switch hardware to get a 'new Amiga'. Wait and see if they pull it off and see what happens.

Regarding your question Maverick, I agree that you should NOT swap your PC with yoru Amiga. I'm a complete Amiga nutter, but unluckily today's market is meant for PCs and the best applications are usually found on PCs. I'd say you should keep your PC and buy an Amiga to use oldschool stuff, and some of the new stuff too... Let's take your query point by point: (long message!)


1) I dont know what you use your PC for, if you tell me what's your use I can tell you which Amiga you need. You CAN connect an SVGA monitor to your A1200 (you just need a scandoubler, that will allow you to even play old games with the SVGA, but they will look pixelly, and you can also add a CyberVision card to teh 1200). You can also tower the A1200. Today's peripherals are more aimed towards towered A1200s than A4000s, s I'd say the 1200 is the best choce, whatever you want to do. Now...

c) The AmigaOne that will be usable for perfect emulation of classics Amiga and the futur Amiga.
Akira seem that he don't like it, but it seem for me that a new powerfull Amiga is a good idea.
Maybee Akira don't believe in that dream or else he is waiting that a more serious company will make it ?

I urge you to go to Amiga's website and read about AmigaOne... Amiga Inc. does NOT make hardware anymore. AmigaOne is JUST a specification. Basically, the PC you already have meets AmigaOne specifications and goes beyond. When the new AmigaOS is available you will be able to use it. Think of AmigaOne as the old MMC standard (multimedia computer). The only thing even barely similar to hardware that is supposedly being developed is Eyetech's AmigaOne expansion board. This will be a a board to make a 1200 'AmigaOne compliant'.. By the end you supposedly wont even need the 1200.. Just read carefully. (this is what I hate the most about AMiga inc, their press releases have confused MANY people)

2) There are many asembler and C development environments. I know only two oldschool ones, Devpac for assembler, and SAS/C++ for C. Godo utilities. You will find books and doumentation online, Khephren wil surely know how to help you on this one. You can look at eBay for the ROM kernal books and other stuff.

3) Just a few. I know only clickboom (www.clickboom.com) but there's another one (who is converting Worms Armaggedon, for one)

4) Here's a few pointers for ya:

www.softhut.com
www.amigagames.co.uk
www.powerc.com

About PC hardware, yes, you can use some (a lot) of hardware on your amiag given yuo have the right expansions. It is not difficult to add new hardware, most times just a matter of installing a driver or two. AmiagOS is the most user-friendly OS I have ever used, you wont have a problem with it.

You will haev to buy OS3.5 or 3.9 sepparately. Check the shops above.

And I think I replied to most of your questions Any further help you need, just post away!

[Amiga1992]

Originally posted by Paul
I once heard something about an Amiga on a card, which slots into the PCs motherboard. I think I sore this in a magazine (was it PC Format?).

If such a card does exist and was of any good, this would be an alternative.

I would be interested in such a card as my A600 HD is on its last legs.

Paul, the AmigaPCI (was it was called) was in development by Siamese Systems, but both the card and the company went down. I know the rights to the card were given to someone else, but it seems the project sank in the waves of vapourware. I was really looking forward to that bastard as well...

Eytech's new hardware board will work in a similar way, making your A1200 motherboard work like a card. Or something :P

[Maverick357]

Ok, Akira i have an better understanding of what is the AmigaOne (only a specification for an software OS), but then what is the photos that i have seen about at: http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/pictures.php ?

Just an other pc compatible with AmigaOne specification ?
If this is the case, then it is not worth it, just keep my pc.
My pc is an up-to-date hardware quality an is certainly ok for the AmigaOne.
You are right, the press release from Amiga Inc. is not very clear.
For me: 'AmigaOne - The Newest Amigas based on the revolutionary Amiga Digital Environment. ' will say a new hardware Amiga and not a software Amiga.

For the futur use of my Amiga it is very simple, i will do everything what i do with my pc.
Playing , programming , internet surfing and read forums
Writting my letters an many others things

If i can use it with my pc hardware, i will mount all my pc peripherals in my Amiga an the pc tower go back in is box.

About the internet, i have seen site that are created with an Amiga and is perfect compatible with IE5, but the majority of internet are created for IE5 or Netscape.
Is there any problems to acces to this site like the use of plug-ins or java scripts ?

If you say that an Amiga 1200 (version with or without an hd ?) is enough if i set it up in a tower case, wich model of tower case must a buy (with the most possible extension for futur if possible, and a big tower if possible) ?

For the Amiga OS 3.9, i have order it a week ago for use it with WinUAE (i know that whas not absolut neccessary, but i like the Amiga you know ), i am waithing for it now.

For an maximal use of my Amiga, what memory and cpu do i need ?
128 Mo or 256 Mo of ram ?
What type of memory is it sdimm at 100 or 133 ?
What hd space do i need for a full install for the Amiga OS 3.9 ?
I know that the Amiga OS is smaller, but i sûppose that if i need the OS + the interner explorer it will take like 250 Mo of hd space (with the swap space for the OS i suppose).

I remember that the OS 3.1 whas on 4 or 5 disks, (and no swap space needed), but now 10 years later, the OS is on cd-rom, it must be taken a lot of hd space for a full install !
With the Amiga 1200 can i use internal zipdrive ide of 250 Mo (in a tower case !) ? Is there drivers for it from Iomega ?

Can i use 3'5 HD ide ATA 100 of 40Gb with it ?

With the 1200 can i continue to play with the Amiga 500 games or must i buy an emulator Amiga 500 for the Amiga 1200 (i know that sound stupid but the roms/wb are different and the chipset too !).?

For programming i like very much the assembly language, but on Amiga i had started learning it ( with devpac 2) 2 months before i sold it.
After 10 years a certainly must start from scratch !
I had Amos + Amos 3D original box, now it is freeware.

If Khephren can give me somes link, i will then directly go see it , and look what i can do in programming with an Amiga

Thanks for your help

When I started coding on the Amiga there was no help at all so fucked if i'm helping

Kidding.

If you want to learn, then get AsmOne. It's better than Devpac and was created (or rewritten depending on your view) by Promax/ex-Kefrens.

Books wise, there is no substitute for the ROM Kernal Reference. There are lots of books floating around on www.ebay.co.uk and auctions.yahoo.co.uk

To get you started off, save the Coding Tutorials from LSD Grapevine magazine. They are excellent.

Another resource is Aminet. Lots of source there, including the source to Alien Breed.

Not sure on web sites. Programmer's Heaven has an amiga section at http://www.programmersheaven.com/zone20/index.htm

Lots of stuff for you to start off with. Just be prepared for a lot of trial and even more (guru) errors.

[Fred the Fop]

I agree with tomato head.

[Maverick357]

Thanks Khephren,
Is the assembler AsmOne strong enough like Devpac 3.x ?
I have seen that the Devpac can now use the op-code of 68060 and from the ppc too.
Is that true ?
If yes, i can buy the AsmOne for learning and then the Devpac for serious stuff !

For the 'LSD Grapevine magazine', is that the same that i can find it at http://amiga.emucamp.com/gv1.htm (Amiga Sector One) ? or it is something else ?

Programmer's haeven, i know this url for the pc and i have use it in the past, very good that she have an Amiga section

Yes, Aminet is a very good site, i have downloaded 2 cd-roms through an ftp program for the utils/tools.
I will look after sources.

I remember me that assembly language whas a lot easyer on the 68000 than the 'Intel inside'.
No segmented memory, more registers, modern op-code, ect...
Errors, and crash is not that important when starting to learn good programming language.
At the begining, we do all some very errors, but with more experience...

A day, on pc when i whas learning the programming of Win98 and directx, i have just compiled a source code from Microsoft himself.
A source code from the Directx SDK downloaded from the site of Microsoft.
That cannot be, more Microsoft, and if they can't do a good source code without bugs, nobody can do then (Directx is a Microsoft product too, Like the WB Apis but for Win9x).
First i compile the source code, and 2 errors as been detected (just syntax error, fastly corrected).
Start again, compilation, all ok.
Run the directx demo and ... crash of the system.
I have never programmed for windows again, i am back to Ms-dos.

The difference between Winblows and the Workbench, is ... if your new program that crash the Amiga OS, then you know that is a bug in your code and note in the OS.
With windows xx, you never know, the OS just crash without information, you can just reset

I know the assembly language for pc and i use Masm 6.x on it, i had buy an original Masm with box and manuals for about 170 $ but 6 months later, this software whas not supported anymore by Microsoft, never updated.
I have Borland compiler original (Borland C and Delphi), and full new release of it, but i don't use it anymore.

I use a freeware for dos (flat memory mode) (maybee you know it because there is an Amiga version), Free Pascal compiler, easy to use, easy to learn (compatible 99 % with Turbo-Pascal) and very good executable code


Thanks for your help

If you don't want to buy Devpac (which is always my number one choice), I say you should go for PhxAss which is available free on Aminet

If you want to code C, the best would have to be Sas/C 6.xx . Otherwise, you could always try Storm C (produces large executables, even with heavy optimisation), Hisoft C, Dice (which I still love and is found free on Aminet).

3) Just a few. I know only clickboom (www.clickboom.com) but there's another one (who is converting Worms Armaggedon, for one)

http://www.hyperion-software.com/

I remember me that assembly language whas a lot easyer on the 68000 than the 'Intel inside'.

I actually found x86 assembly to be alot easier, but that's cause I have alot of experience with it.

I'm refreshing right now with 680x0 assembly

[Twistin'Ghost]

Forget those cheesy apps...get CanDo! Just kidding!

I think I might have the ROM Kernal Reference manuals somewhere here on my hard drive, if you need them.

[Amiga1992]

Mav, those pics are of what I mentioned, the Eyetech peripheral. Will use your 1200 as a board for backwards compatibility. AFAIK it aint a PC, I think it is G4 powered (so it will run the PPC version of AmigaOE). FOr now I'd say concentrate on keeping your PC and getting an Amiga for playing games and some apps. I really have no clue what machine you should get, but I think the following should be enough:

A1200
+ Blizzard 1240 accelerator (68040@50Mhz)
+ one 128MB dimm
+ one good IDE HD (and a proper interface like IDEFIX)
Perhaps A tower. Towerhawks seem like the best.

About surfing the net, you wont be able to use any plugins and stuff. At least not oficial. Basically you have no official support from none of the big companies :P

The AmigaOS doesnt use swap space. afaik it doesnt use virtual memory at all. Unless 3.5/3.9 adds a virtual memory module.

You can use a zipdrive, teh drivers are not done by Iomega though (and you wont get any support from them)

Some A500 gaenms wont work on the 1200 without degrading, even more after you accelerate it. And some will never work. This is a very low number.

Finally, I have no clue how much space takes AmigaOS 3.5/.9 on an HD, since I never istalled it myself.

My advice: get a bare A1200 (perhaps, at teh most, accelerate it) and keep your PC.

[Maverick357]

Ok thanks for your help and infos, now i know what i must do

AmigaBoy : now the asm for intel is easy (in flat mode memory) if you use in a Flat memory model OS like win98, but before this OS use this mode, the real mode whas the only memory model that can be used.
A segmented memory that you must specify allways the segment and the offset if your program is more than 64Kb in size or if you must acces at others adress above that segment.
And in dos, there is no others choice, you MUST use this model of segmented memory (or else you can use dos extenders: protected mode driver, but take a lot of memory >250 Kb in size just for an 'hello world'), if you are in the Dos32 mode (flat mode memory) you cannot use the Bios or acces at video Bios anymore, you must write all your peripherals drivers/functions yourself.
This is not what i call an easy assembly language, but a boring one.

With the 68000, there is more registers to use and there is no segmented memory, you can access directly from the adress of 0000 to 4Gb (real 32 bits adress).

Ok, for c language, i know it good (i don't like/ use C++, the code is poorly optimized, is VERY big in size, and the source code is most of the time unreadible ).
But pure c is perfect, i like it too



Twistin' Ghost: yes i am very interest in the roms kernals, that is the only informations that you need for programming the OS of the Amiga and the Apis of it.
I whas stupid to give it away, the roms kernals books that i had buying when i started to learn the assembly 68000 on the Amiga.
If you can give me a copy of it, i will be happy


Akira: Ok, i will keep my pc, and buy an Amiga 1200 with accelerated+ Memory ads.

For surfing on the net, i have understand that i must keep the IE5 on my pc, that is not the ideal software for that, but it is the only plugs-in compatible.
Is there no others than Microsoft in the world, why do we accepts to be the slaves of Microsoft.
This company rules the world of computer with bad software

Ok, Ok, Ok, i keep it.
I will use both computers then, an real Amiga an the pc (but with Linux then !, more stable)

Thanks for your help, what a shame that this wonderfull computer (Amiga) is almost dead.
The very good things must live for eternity

[Amiga1992]

If you really want to jump OUT of the Windows+Intel platform, get a Mac.

I can't believe in a couple of weeks I'll be back in Motorola-powered heaven! Good to be back working on Motorola processors, I'm sick and tired of thsi Wintel shit.

[Maverick357]

Akira:
Yes, i have looking for a Mac, but
1) a Mac nedd a lot of money to buy one.
b) a don't like the colored design of this computer.

other else, it is long ago that i have quit the wintel system.

The Mac is a very powerfull computer with high-tech peripherals.
The Mac OS look very good (wow ) and seem to be easy and stable like the Amiga OS.
I have never used one and i don't know much about it.
Maybee the Mac have only professional programs, and no dp or games ?!

But if i look good, my pc with all peripherals cost the half of the prize of the Mac.
Maybee if i can find some informations about the Mac, i can think seriously to change my pc for a Mac.

Maverick357: Check out http://www.amiga.com/corporate/080101-amiwest.shtml for the latest in Amiga news. Maybe this will help you out with your decisions