AmigaOS 3.2 and beyond

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

For me some people told that new Amiga games MUST BE:
1. OS friendly
2. HD installable
3. can be quitted to Workbench.

And this same people, wasted 32 KB of chip RAM for all 68000 users.
28KB of chip RAM for 68020+ users.
And it must be good for all Amiga configs.

Yes, but if + or - 24K (and not 32K) of memory makes a difference in this configuration, you will not be able to run from workbench anyhow. There is much more on Workbench that takes memory than the zero page. This is a strawman argument.

Originally Posted by girv

Next problem is related to number of running Amiga programs in same time.
Amiga is multitasking computer.
Less available chip ram = less possible programs to run at same time.

Err, what? Processes rarely take chip memory. Windows and screens do, and their footprint can be reduced by better means. However, you need to put this into perspective: How much memory does a screen take? Which fraction is this?

[boemann]

Originally Posted by LazarX

It warms my coddles to know that at least one Amiga OS line is in active development.

Do you have a development roadmap for 3.3 and beyond?

I've previously said we have made some ReAction based prefs replacements, and intend to replace about half of the prefs. We have a new disk partitioning tool (also ReAction based), a new console with scrollback and tabs. We have also made it possible to have menus to popup at the mouse pointer (like magicmenu)

We don't have a development plan as such, but we have ideas that we suddenly embark on. So it is dynamic, and not something we can talk about in advance.

[h0ffman]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

If it takes over the system, why is this an issue?

It's an issue because while RD is booting from disk, it is still playing nice with the system so that it can use trackdisk.device for loading. Therefore you cannot have all 512kb of chip ram unless you kill everything and use a hardware banging track loader. The issue is the ROM is allocating chip ram before the bootblock is even reached, which is shit!.

[boemann]

Enough talk of this ChipRAM. Everyone have had their say and nothing new is being said anymore. People are simply reiterating their positions.

The RAM will not be reserved in future versions of AmigaOS.

The discussion ends here!

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by boemann

The RAM will not be reserved in future versions of AmigaOS.

The discussion ends here!

Nope. Do you have an idea how hacky PrepareEmul actually is? Do you really want to reintroduce the nonsense imposed by such "tools", and their dependencies on system internals?

[h0ffman]

Originally Posted by boemann

Enough talk of this ChipRAM. Everyone have had their say and nothing new is being said anymore. People are simply reiterating their positions.

The RAM will not be reserved in future versions of AmigaOS.

The discussion ends here!

How about a halfway house? Add an option to enable to MacOS emulation chip ram allocation to the boot menu?

[girv]

Originally Posted by daxb

First, OS >=3.14 will not work on such a configuration.

I'm not trying to run Workbench in 512/512. WB 3.2 works fine on 512Kb chip with more expansion memory. The expansion memory beyond 512Kb does not increase the amount of chipram available to the game though.

Originally Posted by daxb

Second, if you cannot reduce chipram usage then your game might need 1MB chipram.

It doesn't require 1Mb chipram. It requires less than 512Kb but more than 3.2 makes available. I suppose I could have bumped the minimum requirements for 3.2 to 1Mb chip, but that complicates things, rules out some users, and sort of underlines the point being made here. Also, you get complaints.

Originally Posted by daxb

If you take over the system, can't you takeover the allocated chipram from the OS too?

Not if I want to use trackdisk.device for disk access. Using a hardware banging trackloader instead (1) do not like (2) would have required a more complicated two-stage boot process.

[Thomas Richter]

How do you know that there is enough RAM available if expansion allocates its ConfigDevs in ChipMem? How do you know that there is enough RAM available if expansion is in chip? This looks like a very flaky construction. Have you actually tested this with an expanded machine with expansion devices in the system? Available chip memory varies, not only by Os version.

[jbenam]

Originally Posted by h0ffman

How about a halfway house? Add an option to enable to MacOS emulation chip ram allocation to the boot menu?

Or maybe another set of Kickstart ROMs? I honestly get what Thomas is saying here - I would prefer to leave the 32KB always allocated in my expanded A4000 with MMU and not use hacks like PREPAREMUL if I had the chance. I can also understand people with A500s or A2000s that don’t want to waste any precious CHIP RAM for something they won’t ever use.

The only answer here is that this shouldn’t be enabled by default by the OS (which is the correct thing to do considering that all official OSes up to 3.1 didn’t do this) *but* power users should have the choice to have one less hack in their systems.

If producing yet another set of ROMs is too much of a support burden on the AmigaOS Team, can’t this be turned into a feature enabled by a module a-la AtapiMagic? Power users would be able to cook a custom ROM and burn it (I would most certainly do that) and enjoy having the 32KBs always allocated while not putting any support burden on the AmigaOS Team as it would be an “unsupported” configuration.

[girv]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

...

I'm aware, thanks, and yes. This is not my first rodeo.

There is an allowance for available chipram up to a point, and it fails nicely enough after that. The allowance on 3.2 would have been uncomfortably small on my target spec is the point. I've had no complaints anyway.

[girv]

Originally Posted by jbenam

...a feature enabled by a module a-la AtapiMagic?

I like the module idea, if it would work.

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Yes, but if + or - 24K (and not 32K) of memory makes a difference in this configuration, you will not be able to run from workbench anyhow. There is much more on Workbench that takes memory than the zero page. This is a strawman argument.



Err, what? Processes rarely take chip memory. Windows and screens do, and their footprint can be reduced by better means. However, you need to put this into perspective: How much memory does a screen take? Which fraction is this?

Really? You have ZERO knowledge about creating Amiga games.
You have very good knowledge about MMU.
Wasting 32 KB of chip RAM is big problem for many Amiga games.
You can try to load 100 ADFs (with OS friendly games) on A500 quickstart with kickstart 3.2 and check results.

Later you can load 100 ADFs (OS friendly games) with A1200 quickstart with kickstart 3.2 and check results.

MMU is USELESS for 68000 and 68020 Amigas.

If you really want to make changes in Amiga kickstart, made this in clean way.
Not in DIRTY WAY LIKE THIS. IT MUST BE OPTIONAL. NEVER DEFAULT.

The only good solution for Amiga kickstart is made similar changes in bootmenu.
Amiga user, will be choose if he want to waste 0 KB, 4 KB or 32 KB of chip RAM.

ONE EXTRA AMIGA RESET IS NOTHING AND CAN BE ACCEPTABLE.