They should make a Windows like Amiga OS so it runs on a PC

[malko]

Nowadays, as soon as you play (online) you have at 99.99% a kernel access.
Who said win11 is a secure and professional OS ?
You get the idea here : https://www.techspot.com/news/84841-...ed-driver.html

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by malko

Nowadays, as soon as you play (online) you have at 99.99% a kernel access.

Only with admin permission. Yeah, it stinks, but it's still up to you.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

So there's nothing about Amiga OS that you would prefer over eg. Windows 11?

Not asking me personally but dammit I want variable icon sizes, easily user-customisable selected/unselected images and putting them wherever I want them.

Is that too much to ask?

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Thorham

That I only use those two OSs because 'What else to use?'. On the Amiga there's only AOS and on the peecee Linux just isn't an option for me right now. This means I'm stuck with AOS3 and Win11.

Use whatever you are happy and comfortable with and make sure you know the risks/limitations. Who gives a crap if someone else doesn't like it?

[tygre]

Very interesting thread and discussions (mostly ).

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Which is a no-no for any half-way robust Os design. If everything lives in a single address space, a single misguided process can take down the entire machine. Security-wise, robustness-wise, a very bad decision. Amiga and its poor 68K couldn't handle it any better, but that still doesn't make this a future-proof design.

I'm not sure to understand and believe, like Karlos, that a single address space is not inherently a problem if a MMU is used to protect this space, isn't it? I'd like to hear you more on that topic, Thomas

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Which is really not necessary at all. After all, you *can* allocate bitmaps in VRAM as friends and let the chip do the work.

You can, but it's very hit and miss as mentioned above. My experience of RTG is that while blitting "just works", the only time it's not disastrously slow is when both are in exactly the same format and resident in VRAM at the same time. I've never had it work quickly otherwise, which suggests that the only HW blit is that exact situation. Everything else seems like software conversion and associated read/write overhead

This does occasionally come as a surprise when I consider my old Permedia2, where there really isn't a strong distinction between between 2D and fixed function 3D pipeline - all graphical operations go via the same stages (with a few exceptions). It actually can transform pixel data as it fills a trapezoid (which includes basic rectangles) while reading from a source buffer with a different format. This is no slight at P96, the same was true with CGX4 back in the day. There is also a more direct memory copy when no transformation is needed and that's the one I believe is used when blitting in the ideal case.

The other reason you might render straight to fast ram and copy after isn't really RTGs fault, but if your drawing operations aren't all making full width transfers, you waste a lot of time. If your drawing requires that you read existing pixels, e.g. for transparency etc, then you are shit out of luck, because VRAM reads are often really slow.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by tygre

I'm not sure to understand and believe, like Karlos, that a single address space is not inherently a problem if a MMU is used to protect this space, isn't it? I'd like to hear you more on that topic, Thomas

One obvious problem is fragmentation. The more you allocate RAM over time, the more fragmented the address space gets and the harder to allocate a contiguous space. Less of an issue when the address space is relatively massive (such as 64-bit addressing) but if you're also not demand paging memory out to disk then you also have to restrict your use of virtual address space to the limits of physical RAM.

Another obvious disadvantage is that you can't just memory map files and use demand paging to only load the portions you actually require, so dealing with files is just inherently more fiddly.

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

One obvious problem is fragmentation. The more you allocate RAM over time, the more fragmented the address space gets and the harder to allocate a contiguous space. Less of an issue when the address space is relatively massive (such as 64-bit addressing) but if you're also not demand paging memory out to disk then you also have to restrict your use of virtual address space to the limits of physical RAM.

Another obvious disadvantage is that you can't just memory map files and use demand paging to only load the portions you actually require, so dealing with files is just inherently more fiddly.

I don't recall talking about MMU stuff in this thread, I was just recalling the mixed feelings I get remembering what graphics programming on 68K/RTG was like.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Karlos

Use whatever you are happy and comfortable with and make sure you know the risks/limitations.

Sure, but I need Win11 and what to use instead of AOS3 on my A1200 that runs well?

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Sure, but I need Win11 and what to use instead of AOS3 on my A1200 that runs well?

Use AmigaOS. Do you need a secure, multiuser operating system on what was intended to be a single user home computer?

Maybe I wasn't clear, I said use whatever you want, knowing the risks / limitations associated with the choice. Maybe don't depend on the A1200 for internet banking.

If you have security worries about Windows 11, you could install a virtual machine with a secured Linux image purely to run browser jobs inside. For extra paranoia, have the image read-only and create a copy of it each time so it's always clean. Obviously you'll want to keep the master image up to date.

None of this helps with over privileged access to windows from other applications. You could make sure you have a non admin user as your main account and only ever use the admin account for system administration.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Karlos

Use AmigaOS. Do you need a secure, multiuser operating system on what was intended to be a single user home computer?

This is based on Bruce Abbot's post:

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

So there's nothing about Amiga OS that you would prefer over eg. Windows 11?

To which I answered:

I use AmigaOS on my A1200 for the same reason I use Windows 11 on by peecee. My Amiga and peecee can both do better.

In other words, I use them because I have to, not because I want to. What I want for my Amiga doesn't exist anyway

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Karlos

You can, but it's very hit and miss as mentioned above. My experience of RTG is that while blitting "just works", the only time it's not disastrously slow is when both are in exactly the same format and resident in VRAM at the same time.

Sure. Most contemporary graphic chips of that time did not have means to convert one format to another, and thus P96 lacks the abstraction to it. Converting from chunky to anything else is quite ok but CPU driven, but converting in the other direction is really slow as it requires an inverse palette lookup. Even converting between direct color formats is slow. P96 can accelerate blits from one format to the very same format, but nothing else, and this goes in line what chips back then could (or could not) do. Thus, no surprises.


IOWs, if you want fast rendering, it's ok to store your own graphics in whatever format you want, but you need to convert them (either with or without P96) to the target bitmap format before the game logic starts.


On-chip format conversion came later. I believe I already mentioned that the voodoo is the first chip that could handle this.

Originally Posted by Karlos

This does occasionally come as a surprise when I consider my old Permedia2, where there really isn't a strong distinction between between 2D and fixed function 3D pipeline - all graphical operations go via the same stages (with a few exceptions). It actually can transform pixel data as it fills a trapezoid (which includes basic rectangles) while reading from a source buffer with a different format. This is no slight at P96, the same was true with CGX4 back in the day. There is also a more direct memory copy when no transformation is needed and that's the one I believe is used when blitting in the ideal case.

Oh yes, the Permedia has also some format conversions, but the formats it can handle for textures are different from the format it can to on the CRTC which makes it hard to handle. It chip is a little odd anyhow since it can only blit to screens of certain dimensions. After all, it's a TI development, and same as for the TMS34010, it shows some bad design decisions... (-;

Originally Posted by Karlos

The other reason you might render straight to fast ram and copy after isn't really RTGs fault, but if your drawing operations aren't all making full width transfers, you waste a lot of time.

That's what P96 is, however, actually doing. The low-level conversion and transport operations are quite well optimized, actually.

Originally Posted by Karlos

If your drawing requires that you read existing pixels, e.g. for transparency etc, then you are shit out of luck, because VRAM reads are often really slow.

Yes, and unfortunately for most minterms, it is a read and a write at VRAM.

[Karlos]

I'd need to recheck this, but my recollection is that the formats the P2 bitmapping supports is a strict subset of the formats the that can be used for texturing, which includes some YUV and 4-bit nybble formats. So in theory it ought to be able to convert between any sensible RGB layouts and CLUT to RGB. What it can't do, is RGB to CLUT, for obvious reasons.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Thorham

I use them because I have to, not because I want to. What I want for my Amiga doesn't exist anyway

I am the same. Not on the Amiga because it's a retro machine so AmigaOS 3.0 is exactly what I want on my A1200, but on the PC I have no choice other than to use Windows 10 for compatibility. However that's just on the machine I use to watch TV programs. I have another PC running Linux for general use, and my old XP machine for development work. I also have a few retro PCs - each with an OS appropriate to its capabilities.

If it wasn't for compatibility issues I would be quite happy with Windows XP on all my 'modern' PCs. Windows 10 isn't the greatest, but it does the job. An 'Amiga-like' OS wouldn't, which would make it pretty useless. Not that we have to worry about that, since this 'Amiga-like' OS will never be produced.

[Karlos]

When people say they need Windows, I assume that what they mean is that they have some software that runs on it. I've used Linux as my "PC" daily driver since at least 2005. There are plenty of applications that I used on windows and thankfully most of them work, and continue to work on Wine.

The obvious exception that I can think of (at least prior to proton) is gaming. There are still titles that don't work properly (or at all), but I dunno, what do you guys use your Windows machines for? Maybe there are alternatives to be had.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

but on the PC I have no choice other than to use Windows 10 for compatibility.

Until you have to upgrade to Winblows 11

Originally Posted by Karlos

The obvious exception that I can think of (at least prior to proton) is gaming. There are still titles that don't work properly (or at all), but I dunno, what do you guys use your Windows machines for? Maybe there are alternatives to be had.

Gaming, Visual Studio, some other things.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But on the PC I have no choice other than to use Windows 10 for compatibility. However that's just on the machine I use to watch TV programs.

You don't have to. You have the choice. I'm not owing a PC anymore, but laptops that fit better into my tiny apartment, but all running Linux. For watching TV, there is a program named "Mediathekview" which offers all the public programs, and for the actual TV decoder, there is "mpv", which can handle all the formats the stations use. No issue.


In the rare case I need to work on a Word document, I have "Crossover Office", which also works really nicely, and it gets the Windows stuff out of the way.

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Until you have to upgrade to Winblows 11
Gaming, Visual Studio, some other things.

I'm pretty sure VS runs OK on wine. In fact I think there may be a Linux native version.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

One obvious problem is fragmentation. The more you allocate RAM over time, the more fragmented the address space gets and the harder to allocate a contiguous space. Less of an issue when the address space is relatively massive (such as 64-bit addressing) but if you're also not demand paging memory out to disk then you also have to restrict your use of virtual address space to the limits of physical RAM.

Well that is is not really such a big deal and can be mitigated through smart memory allocations, memory pools or object stores.
Obviously a new OS would use 64-bit addressing, which is on modern architectures usually actually 48bit wide or so .. leaving plenty of room for things like tags stored within such an 64bit-adresss.

Having a flat continuous virtual address space for the OS and all programs, does NOT mean the MMU is not used for translating these addresses to on to actual physical addresses, which would be different.
Smaller chunks of fragmented physical memory can be collected and presented as a continuous region in the virtual address space.

Also programs for such an OS need to be compiled position independent anyways, leaving only relative jumps within the program code. This can be used to make the program live-relocatable (scheduler/kernel pauses the program, copies it to a new location, adjusts the program counter, and activates it again.
This is not possible in AmigaOS now due to no explicit rules for how to handle shared memory and things like hooks ...)

Another obvious disadvantage is that you can't just memory map files and use demand paging to only load the portions you actually require, so dealing with files is just inherently more fiddly.

You can memory map files just fine within a SAS-OS

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Karlos

what do you guys use your Windows machines for?

Web, notepad++, visual studio, mpc-hc, emulation (a lot !), gaming.
Oh, and also pure laziness (it came pre-installed), lack of knowledge about what alternatives can currently do, and to have something easy to blame in case anything goes wrong.