Crappy C64 screen resolution

[TCD]

I would like to point out this post:

Originally Posted by Zak

That's only a thing for people that did know about better resolutions. Obvioulsy, you did not know about computers games with better resolution or hardly ever experienced them in mid eighties. It's when you are a C64 owner and that is what you know on a daily basis, you will not see any downsides in it, because your eyes are a used to it. We had a Spectrum and a PC at home, both with better resolution. I don't say that those are better computers, but the screen resolution was better and I was so much used to it, that I didn't like the C64 much in the eighties, colors or no colors.

This post still boggles my mind. Why even ask if people were okay with the resolution of the C64 in the first post if you can't accept that people did?

[tomcat666]

Originally Posted by Zak

That's only a thing for people that did know about better resolutions. Obvioulsy, you did not know about computers games with better resolution or hardly ever experienced them in mid eighties. It's when you are a C64 owner and that is what you know on a daily basis, you will not see any downsides in it, because your eyes are a used to it. We had a Spectrum and a PC at home, both with better resolution. I don't say that those are better computers, but the screen resolution was better and I was so much used to it, that I didn't like the C64 much in the eighties, colors or no colors.

You know that C64 starts in high resolution mode, don't you? So ALL c64 users knew that high resolution mode exists since they saw it when they turned the thing ON.

[Zak]

Originally Posted by saimo

Did you try at all? Also, just head over to Lemon64 and have a look. You'll find quite a few, especially in non-action categories (eg. RPG) and ZX Spectrum ports. And, yes, it will take time - but since you're so eager...
That said, here are other examples (beyond those I already mentioned) off the top of my mind: Joust, Saboteur, Wizard of Wor, Star Crash, Time of Silence, Falklands 82, L'Abbaye des Morts, Lala Prologue, Manic Miner, Arac, Platman Worlds, Sidney Hunter, Tenebra Macabre, Tony: Montezuma's Gold, VVVVVV, You Have to Win the Game.

Now that's more what I would call "plenty" examples and not the very few examples I got to read before. You are extremely nitpicking about me saying there were no high resolution games on C64, where what I wanted to say was "almost" no hires games. Jeez, you have to watch every single word in this forum and you're not willing to get the point of a question, it's more like inquisition tribunal than a discussion. Also people take a few little words very personally, I seem to have stabbed into a bee's hive.

Wouldn't one agree that the vast majority of C64 games was produced in low res? Or was it mor like 50:50 and I'm so utterly wrong in my perception? I have the feeling that the use of low reolution on C64 was more like "we always did it that way" tradition thing, not that it actually does look worse from what I've seen from the examples. I see it the way that this hires feature was neglected, that's why I was asking. I don't see the hires games as obvious downgrade. But when you're saying that the distribution between hires and lores games is like 50:50 then my perception was just wrong and it wasn't neglected at all. That's something I can't tell by searching websites and what I simply would need other users experiences for what I thought this forum was for.

I'm sorry about the spice in the thread title and first post, I'm somewhat more used to soccer forums, where it's a bit more normal to tease a little. But you obviously can't tease about C64. It's blasphemy. How dare I?

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Zak

Wouldn't one agree that the vast majority of C64 games was produced in low res? Or was it mor like 50:50 and I'm so utterly wrong in my perception?

I'm not sure I'd say it was. I think the majority of games probably used the multicoloured character mode which allows mixing both high and low resolutions on the screen at once. And many games took advantage of that fact.

But I've not done any real analysis of that and I'm not really "a C64 guy" so might very well be wrong. It's probably also fair to say that games which did mix the two, tended to favour low res tiles for most of the screen.

[saimo]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Yes, we're talking about this thread, not some alleged world wide conspiracy by those dastardly ZX Spectrum users.

And I'd like to know exactly where the OP, who said this in the 1st post:...is trying to prove "the superiority of their machine"?

Nb, I haven't followed this thread page by page so I don't know, maybe he had later (which I doubt) - but if you're unable to provide a specific example then I will assume you simply saw the title, put your tribal hat on, and jumped straight in without actually realising this thread is about a single feature, not overall platform superiority.

If you do yourself the favour of reading all my posts in this thread, you'd notice I didn't put any tribal hat on: I addressed the technical bull*it with technical explanation and examples.
And since you're pretending that the C64-Lego-graphics-suck-the-ZX-Spectrum-owns-it is only a construction of my mind, here's one of the first results of a simple web search: https://mobile.myreviewer.com/Articl...ter-Than-Yours. It is not a forum rant, but a supposedly reasoned article where the author concludes that the ZX Spectrum is the better machine. In the graphics section you can read the usual complaints and something that's very revealing of the bias and of the underlying intentions: after the author admits that the C64 can display graphics like the ZX Spectrum (without specifying that, in that specific mode, the C64 can actually do better), he concludes that... basically it's a draw?!? What? The C64 can do the same thing (better), plus tons of other things (other 4 screen modes, fine scrolling, sprites, dynamic sprites/background priority, sprites/background collision) and... a draw?!? Seriously?
(Side note: the graphics section contains also the usual partial (mis)information and false myths; I did't read the rest and I couldn't care less.)
This is the last thing I write about the metadiscussion, the fights and whatnot. My only purpose here was to debunk the bull*it.

[saimo]

Originally Posted by Zak

Now that's more what I would call "plenty" examples and not the very few examples I got to read before. You are extremely nitpicking about me saying there were no high resolution games on C64, where what I wanted to say was "almost" no hires games. Jeez, you have to watch every single word in this forum and you're not willing to get the point of a question, it's more like inquisition tribunal than a discussion. Also people take a few little words very personally, I seem to have stabbed into a bee's hive.

Wouldn't one agree that the vast majority of C64 games was produced in low res? Or was it mor like 50:50 and I'm so utterly wrong in my perception? I have the feeling that the use of low reolution on C64 was more like "we always did it that way" tradition thing, not that it actually does look worse from what I've seen from the examples. I see it the way that this hires feature was neglected, that's why I was asking. I don't see the hires games as obvious downgrade. But when you're saying that the distribution between hires and lores games is like 50:50 then my perception was just wrong and it wasn't neglected at all. That's something I can't tell by searching websites and what I simply would need other users experiences for what I thought this forum was for.

You're being dishonest.
In the OP you wrote "so why didn't it [usage of hires in games] happen?" (brackets mine). In a following post you wrote: "But wasn't this the same on the Sinclair ZX Spectrum and yet they always used the high resolution screen mode and the C64 never did?". In another post you wrote: "I wonder why this screen mode on C64 was never used for games. Like never ever, not even for puzzle games or text adventures".
It's not me nitpicking, it's you talking bull*it and then trying to make it look like you meant something else after your bull*it got debunked.
Also, I never wrote that the hires games are 50%, but, instead, I explicitly wrote (multiple times, even) that hires games are a minority. Please don't try again to put words in my mouth.

Now you know that hires was and is used, a few reasons why multicolor was used more and, as a bonus, some technical details about the native capabilities of the C64: are you satisfied? Do you acknowledge that your premises are wrong and subjective, and what has been provided in reply?

[saimo]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

I'm not sure I'd say it was. I think the majority of games probably used the multicoloured character mode which allows mixing both high and low resolutions on the screen at once. And many games took advantage of that fact.

But I've not done any real analysis of that and I'm not really "a C64 guy" so might very well be wrong. It's probably also fair to say that games which did mix the two, tended to favour low res tiles for most of the screen.

I didn't do any analysis either, but I'm pretty sure it's exactly like you wrote.

[tomcat666]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

I'm not sure I'd say it was. I think the majority of games probably used the multicoloured character mode which allows mixing both high and low resolutions on the screen at once. And many games took advantage of that fact.

Many games did, but definetly not the majority. The majority of games use the Multicolor Character mode where you have 4 combinations for each "wide" pixel: 00 01 10 11. Three colours are globally defined the fourth (11 combo) will be gathered from the Colour RAM. This fourth colour can only be one of the first 8 colours in the c64 palette.
Now, to scroll this kind of bitmap you need to refresh the whole character ram and then also colour ram. You can use double buffering for character ram, but colour ram is fixed. Because of very limited CPU time you had to resort to tricks when you wanted to update both character and colour ram. If the coder was clever and good enough this can be achieved, but a lot of games just use 4 colours throughout the game field.