Denise C64 mode problems!

[amilo3438]

Here is the list of problems found while testing some of protected disks in Denise C64 mode:

01) out_run_s1[us_gold_1988](pal)(!) ... loading problem!? (fine in vice)

02) andy_capp[mirrorsoft_1987)(pal) ... loading problem!? (fine in vice & hoxs)

03) falcon_patrol[advantage_1983] ... loading problem!? (fine in vice & hoxs)

- If you drag-n-drop it like a zip file to the power button, it won't work!? (but it will in vice & hoxs)
- If unzip it in 7-zip and switch from there with d'n'd to power button, it will work!
- If transfer it with zip, but so that it does not start automatically, and then load/start with: LOAD"FALCON",8 then RUN, it will work!
- If you are in freshly started denise with Amiga mode and drag-n-drop it to Amiga window (not power button), it might work as zip!

[PiCiJi]

nightly:

unfortunately there are many G64s in circulation, which are adapted to the (incomplete) emulation at that time in order to be able to run. Some of them only work in VICE because they don't emulate motor deceleration. I have reduced the emulation of the motor deceleration in this nightly. So it moves away from the original. Basically, I only need this for a few games.

- out_run_s1[us_gold_1988](pal)(!)
shouldn't work or only sometimes on real device(Denise, Ulimate II+)
try it multiple times for success
- andy_capp[mirrorsoft_1987)(pal) ... loading problem!? (fine in vice)
shouldn't work or only sometimes on real device
try it multiple times in VICE and it crashes sometimes.
now same in Denise
disable drive wobble to get it running each time (far too scarce on real device)

03) falcon_patrol[advantage_1983] ... loading problem!? (fine in vice &
should work better now, same like the others, try it multipe times

[amilo3438]

Thanks for checking!

Tested, and yes, exactly as you described... the only problem I had was with out_run, but it also worked after countless attempts.

If so, I guess it's probably not worth the time and effort to report problems like this anymore.

[Retro-Nerd]

Add Nib Support. Maybe somewhat useful for testing original preserved games but not converted to other formats. Micro64 has it.

[PiCiJi]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Tested, and yes, exactly as you described... the only problem I had was with out_run, but it also worked after countless attempts.

with disabled motor deceleration game works with the same probability like VICE.
However, Star-Trekking 86 (not working in VICE), which depends on the emulation of the motor deceleration, no longer works.

Originally Posted by amilo3438

If so, I guess it's probably not worth the time and effort to report problems like this anymore.

It probably makes sense, but should not be the highest priority.

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Add Nib Support. Maybe somewhat useful for testing original preserved games but not converted to other formats. Micro64 has it.

I wish there had been a community that would have transferred all the games to the P64 format. Because this format is also independent of the emulator's capabilities and measures exactly the distance between the flux changes.
On the subject of G64: A small team in Forum64 has created more up-to-date G64 after the floppy controller emulation was revised by the SPS team for VICE. For copyright reasons, however, these cannot be published "officially".

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

with disabled motor deceleration game works with the same probability like VICE.
However, Star-Trekking 86 (not working in VICE), which depends on the emulation of the motor deceleration, no longer works.

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

On the subject of G64: A small team in Forum64 has created more up-to-date G64 after the floppy controller emulation was revised by the SPS team for VICE. For copyright reasons, however, these cannot be published "officially".

If there is a possibility that the new versions of g64 differ in something, eg. some identification byte, then it is possible that the emulator itself turns on/off deceleration depending on the version of the file!?

And if not, there's always the option to put some switch in the emulator, with a bubble explaining the difference, and thus enable both versions.

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

It probably makes sense, but should not be the highest priority.

Not high on my priority list either! (but occasionally, maybe)

[PiCiJi]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

And if not, there's always the option to put some switch in the emulator, with a bubble explaining the difference, and thus enable both versions.

That makes it complicated for users. To get certain G64s to work, you can also achieve the balance via the drive speed and the disk wobble.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

To get certain G64s to work, you can also achieve the balance via the drive speed and the disk wobble.

This reminds me of the C64 tape head azimuth adjustment!

I think I found an mistake in tape drives "Datasette Wobble" balloon!? ("... fluctuations in disk drive..." -> disk drive?)

[PiCiJi]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

I think I found an mistake in tape drives "Datasette Wobble" balloon!? ("... fluctuations in disk drive..." -> disk drive?)

yes

[PiCiJi]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

I think I found an mistake in tape drives "Datasette Wobble" balloon!? ("... fluctuations in disk drive..." -> disk drive?)

should be fixed in latest nightly

[amilo3438]

04) vixen[martech_1988](pal)(paraprotect_v2) ... If drag and drop on power button = CPU Jam! (If drag and drop on the screen and LOAD"*",8,1 = works!) EDIT: Not always!

EDIT: Changed Disk Speed to 299.00 RPM and Disk Wobble to 0 RPM and it works!!! (Which confirms what was said in post #7.)

EDIT2: In fact, it is only needed to reduce Disk Speed to 299.90 RPM to works always!


EDIT3: With "vorpal_utility_kit[epyx_1986](!)" (option C and than B) checked current speed of disk drive in 3 emus:

Current speed:
299.78 RPM = Denise (constant when wobble is disabled)
299.78 RPM = Hoxs (constant, no wobble option)
299.78 RPM = Vice (C64SC) (constant when wobble amplitude is disabled)

What is interesting here is that Hoxs, Vice and Denise shows same speed (with wobble disabled) but vixen works in Hoxs and in Vice and Denise is CPU Jam!
On Vice (C64SC) default setting it behaves randomly with vixen, like in Denise needs to reduce drive RPM to work always.


EDIT4: Testing the disk speed now with "1541 Speed Test" from [CSDb] and...
299.87 RPM = Hoxs
300.00 RPM = Denise & Vice (with wobble disabled)! (So that explains why vixen works in Hoxs and needs speed reduction to 299.90 RPM to work in Denise & Vice!)

Now I'm wondering why "1541 Speed Test" doesn't show the same RPM in all 3 emulators and the "vorpal_utility_kit[epyx_1986](!)" does!?


EDIT5: Tested now with other program "1541/70 Head Alignment and Speed Check" from [CSDb] with interesting results:
300.15 RPM = Hoxs & Vice (with wobble disabled)
343.05 RPM = Denise (with wobble disabled)!? (Hmm, Denise has a problem or is something else!?)


EDIT6: tested again but with "1541 Diagnostic Cartridge V1.0 [ram version]" from [CSDb] and...
299.9 RPM = Hoxs
299.9 RPM & 300.0 RPM = Vice (wobble disabled)
356.6 RPM = Denise (wobble disabled)!? (again Denise shows different value, why!?)


EDIT7:
Speed check on other emu: "micro64_Build 719" (with 1541 Mechanics emulation enabled)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
299.77 RPM ... From EDIT3: "vorpal_utility_kit[epyx_1986](!)" ... (~same as Denise, Hoxs & Vice where was 299.78 RPM)
300.00 RPM ... From EDIT4: "1541SpeedTest" ... (same as Denise & Vice)
300.15 RPM ... From EDIT5: "1541/70 Head Alignment and Speed Check" ... (same as Hoxs & Vice)
299.9 RPM ... From EDIT6: "1541 Diagnostic Cartridge V1.0 [ram version]" ... (same as Hoxs & Vice)


micro64, 1541 Mechanics emulation -> 1541 floppy mechanics options (default):
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Head seeking time... 8.192 ms
Motor spin time scale ... x 256
Motor spin up factor... 700
Motor spin down factor... 256
Maximal motor RPM... 300 rpm
Motor RPM GCR threshold... 0 rpm

Motor spin up: 170.240 ms at 1 MHz
Motor spin down: 400.640 ms at 1 MHz


Note:
The "micro64_Build 719" seems to emulate only PAL machine! (Also supports drag'n'drop but not .zip!)
While in the emu, use F9 key to enter into menu! (For other keys check -> https://www.c64-wiki.de/wiki/Micro64 )



EDIT8:
RPM tests from Testbench vice-emu -> rpm.g64

RPM1 test:
------------
299.9715030 = Denise (wobble disabled)
299.9715030 = Hoxs
299.9730020 & 299.9715030 = Micro64 (mechanics emulation disabled)
299.9715030 = Vice (wobble amplitude & freq. disabled)

RPM2 test:
------------
299.9700030 = Denise (wobble disabled)
299.9700030 = Hoxs
299.9655040 = Micro64 (mechanics emulation disabled)
299.9670040 = Vice (wobble amplitude & freq. disabled)

RPM3 test:
------------
300.0000000 = Denise (wobble disabled)
300.0000000 = Hoxs
299.9985000 = Micro64 (mechanics emulation disabled)
300.0000000 = Vice (wobble amplitude & freq. disabled)



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other...


Tested to work on PAL-N, PAL-M or NTSC-M! (but not work on PAL-B)
-----------------------------------------------------
05) castlevania_s1[konami_1990](manual)(!)
06) heat_wave[accolade_1989]
07) overlord[virgin_1990]
08) questprobe_the_hulk[gvp_1986]
09) victory_road[data_east_1987](!)

The above games refuse to load if the VIC-II is PAL-B, but if it is PAL-N, PAL-M or NTSC-M then they work!?

EDIT: Other example, the "beach-head[access_1983](v5)(!)", glitch on PAL-B (confirmed on a real C64), but works fine on PAL-N or NTSC-M!
So, if in a file name is not specifically mentioned PAL, probably is not then for PAL, even if it seems to work fine! (especially if there are some weird little glitches)


Tested to work only on "micro 64_Build 719"!
-------------------------------------------------------
10) bionic_commando[capcom_1988](pal)(!) (try it multiple times for success) ... Note: Work on Denise & Vice if 310.00 RPM!
11) rambo_first_blood_part_ii[ocean_1985](pal)(!)
12) vampires_empire[magic_bytes_1988](!)
13) xenophobe_s1[microplay_1989](pal)(missing_side2) ... Note: Work on Denise & Vice if 310.00 RPM!
14) star_trekking_ii[ufland_1986] ... Note: Work on Denise if 310.00 RPM!

The above games refuse to load on Denise, Hoxs or Vice!?


PS.
Tested games from post#1 & post#11 on micro64 emu:
--------------------------------------------------------------
andy_capp[mirrorsoft_1987)(pal) ... no problem on micro64! (Note: Work on Denise if 295.00 RPM and wobble disabled!)
falcon_patrol[advantage_1983] ... no problem on micro64!
out_run_s1[us_gold_1988](pal)(!) ... no problem on micro64! (Note: Work on Denise if 305.00 RPM!)
vixen[martech_1988](pal)(paraprotect_v2) ... no problem on micro64! (Note: Work on Denise if 299.90 RPM!)

PS. I wonder if the Micro64 doesn't somehow automatically adjust the speed of the drive according to the disk it is reading!?


So far micro 64 shown best results in loading PAL-B games and disk speed check (except in RPM tests from Testbench vice-emu)!!! (although the latest release is from 2018)

And here is what author of the micro64 said about some 16 years ago -> https://www.forum64.de/index.php?thr...893#post216893

About the 1541 emulation: I am particularly proud of this. Original clock speed (1 MHz). Absolutely complete mechanical emulation including spindle start/stop behavior, read head, inertia of the components, data scrap if more than 0 GCR bits are received in succession (without much additional code logic), etc. The 1541 sound emulation works closely with this 1541 mechanical emulation and uses a simpler form of granular synthesis. Reads&writes D64X64 and G64 files, even non-byte-aligned G64s (reading&writing) thanks to the complete drive mechanical emulation.

[PiCiJi]

That's some info, thanks.
I'll look at the different RPM (343, 356) as soon as I'm through with my current ticket. I don't know to what extent Micro64 differs the emulation of the old or new G64 (2012). However, a deviation of 5 RPM should be a problem for the original drive. This requires some testing. Are you through with the G64 tests? Otherwise, I would wait and see as well. Because it gives me all the relevant problem cases.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

Are you through with the G64 tests? Otherwise, I would wait and see as well. Because it gives me all the relevant problem cases.

Oh no, I haven't started seriously yet, nor am I sure yet if I will... I'm just having a little fun with the C64! (I'm still resting from that Amiga testing!)

PS. I will probably test from time to time when I feel like it! (not my a top priority right now)

[PiCiJi]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Oh no, I haven't started seriously yet, nor am I sure yet if I will... I'm just having a little fun with the C64! (I'm still resting from that Amiga testing!)

ok in that case it's better to wait. There will certainly be many more such cases and I don't know if it makes sense or is possible to distinguish between the old and new G64.

some quick tests
10) bionic_commando[capcom_1988](pal)(!) (try it multiple times for success) ... Note: Work on Denise & Vice if 310.00 RPM!
works with 300 RPM in Denise ?

11) rambo_first_blood_part_ii[ocean_1985](pal)(!)
works in VICE 2.3, not from VICE 2.4 onwards. VICE 2.4 has the new extended G64 emulation from SPS team.

edit: If it works with a changed drive speed or the likelihood of it running increases, this is a good indication that the G64 has been adapted to the emulator for the old simple emulation.

edit2: from changelog it seems Micro64 uses old G64 emulation and has some hacks for newer SPS G64.
I wish the newly created G64s were available to the public. A few weeks ago, I've tested a few games (new G64) from the first postings and they run cleanly and not just randomly.

edit3: Sure, you could switch the old G64 emulation by option. In my opinion, automatic detection is not a sensible option. Micro64 has obviously taken advantage of the fact that there are only a handful of publicly available new G64s.

edit4: Hold on. For Rambo, there seems to be another explanation. Micro64 uses the 1541 Kernal as standard. The other emulators the more common 1541-II. If you switch to 1541 in Denise, it works.
If you use the 1541-II Kernal in Micro64, it doesn't work anymore.
To change the Kernal in Micro64 you have to copy the 1541-II Kernal into the folder "User/AppData/Roaming/micro64" and rename it to 1541.rom

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

some quick tests
10) bionic_commando[capcom_1988](pal)(!) (try it multiple times for success) ... Note: Work on Denise & Vice if 310.00 RPM!
works with 300 RPM in Denise ?

Hmm, I found the reason... because I used WARP on the 1451-II drive and on the 1451 drive works with default 300 RPM with WARP too!

P.S. Without using WARP, it's so slow, so I'll have to consider that if it doesn't work with warp then test again without!

EDIT: And this also applies to: -> 13) xenophobe_s1[microplay_1989](pal)(missing_side2) ... works without WARP on 1541-II too!

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

edit4: Hold on. For Rambo, there seems to be another explanation. Micro64 uses the 1541 Kernal as standard. The other emulators the more common 1541-II. If you switch to 1541 in Denise, it works.
If you use the 1541-II Kernal in Micro64, it doesn't work anymore.
To change the Kernal in Micro64 you have to copy the 1541-II Kernal into the folder "User/AppData/Roaming/micro64" and rename it to 1541.rom

Good finding... it works indeed with old 1541! (I will have to take that into account in future tests!)

PS. A good indicator will be that if something works in Micro64 then change to drive 1541 on Denise or in Vice!

[PiCiJi]

Warp corrupts the randomness of disk wobble.

I'll try to optimize this by just setting a random value at the beginning and then a controlled randomness with "Xorshift". This is not affected by Warp.