Crappy C64 screen resolution

[Megalomaniac]

Hugely impressive demo suggestion from TCD there, but I'm much more interested in what can be done in games. Law of the West aside I'm not seeing too many suggestions for C64 games (from then or now) which make good use of the hi-res mode - or indeed any isometric games (a style which was almost designed to make use of the Spectrum's strengths and minimise its weaknesses, though the Amstrad was suited to it too) which manage to be colourful and fast (Spindizzy, while not exactly the same thing, is impressively fast on the C64, mind you). As well as being less versatile, the NES and Master System both suffered for sprite limitations resulting in flicker, too.

Ignoring the Amstrad for now as it came later, is it fair to suggest that the C64's graphics technology was designed with the US market in mind, and the Spectrum with the UK market in mind? The US was more willing to pay a higher price in favour of fast and colourful arcade style games, whereas in the UK home computers were primarily perceived as an affordable learning tool, but with a very strong ethos of one kid in his bedroom designing the next bestselling innovative game, an attitude that didn't linger for as long in the US. Clive Sinclair himself had no intererst in games and no particular desire for people to use his computers for them, indeed.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Ignoring the Amstrad for now as it came later, is it fair to suggest that the C64's graphics technology was designed with the US market in mind, and the Spectrum with the UK market in mind? The US was more willing to pay a higher price in favour of fast and colourful arcade style games, whereas in the UK home computers were primarily perceived as an affordable learning tool, but with a very strong ethos of one kid in his bedroom designing the next bestselling innovative game, an attitude that didn't linger for as long in the US. Clive Sinclair himself had no intererst in games and no particular desire for people to use his computers for them, indeed.

I think it's more that Commodore owned a FAB and could thus produce custom chips a lot cheaper than the competition. And so they did, putting as much functionality into their systems as they could to make them marketable at a reasonable cost.

Alas using their facilities in that way meant they did have the money to invest into modernization and eventually the advantage was lost.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Hugely impressive demo suggestion from TCD there, but I'm much more interested in what can be done in games.

Here's a thread on Lemon64 about games: https://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42025

[saimo]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

The consoles achieved it mostly by rigourously dividing the usage of system memory, so the video hardware had exclusive access to most of the memory and the CPU was limited to updating it within specific windows of time (usually via DMA). It was very much a case of sacrificing flexibility for performance, which probably wouldn't have been ideal for home computers of the era (since the design relied a lot on having most data fixed in ROMs).

This.
Plus, it looks like the fact that the C64 offered natively also a colorful hires mode is still being ignored - it's called extended background color mode (EBCM) and allows 4 colors per 8x8 character, with 3 of the colors shared by all the characters and 1 color freely selectable for each character. The tradeoff, in this case, is that the number of different characters in the charset is 64 (instead of 256).
Side note: thanks to the flexibility of the C64 hardware, the limitations of this mode, like for the other 4 modes, can be easily broken.

[saimo]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Hugely impressive demo suggestion from TCD there, but I'm much more interested in what can be done in games. Law of the West aside I'm not seeing too many suggestions for C64 games (from then or now) which make good use of the hi-res mode - or indeed any isometric games (a style which was almost designed to make use of the Spectrum's strengths and minimise its weaknesses, though the Amstrad was suited to it too) which manage to be colourful and fast (Spindizzy, while not exactly the same thing, is impressively fast on the C64, mind you). As well as being less versatile, the NES and Master System both suffered for sprite limitations resulting in flicker, too.

In recent years Rod & Emu ported several ZX Spectrum isometric games (IIRC, by transcoding the code, for the maximum faithfullness). From what I've read, the results are excellent (I didn't try the games and I wouldn't be able to compare them with the originals as I don't know them). Check them out here.
As for other hires games, the fact that nobody is investing time to make a nice list doesn't mean that there are few games.
My own games are all hires:
* QUOD INIT EXIT mixes the hires bitmap mode and the extended background color mode at the same time;
* QUOD INIT EXIT IIo uses the extended background color mode;
* MAH uses the standard character mode.
They all sport hires and colorful sprites, too.
Other games that come to mind:
* https://www.lemon64.com/game/robot-jet-action
* https://www.lemon64.com/game/harharagon
* https://www.lemon64.com/game/rocky-m...nd-of-atlantis
* https://www.lemon64.com/game/planet-golf
* https://www.lemon64.com/game/slaine

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

I think it's more that Commodore owned a FAB and could thus produce custom chips a lot cheaper than the competition. And so they did, putting as much functionality into their systems as they could to make them marketable at a reasonable cost.

Remind me how much the 64 launched for in the UK? And then compare that to the Speccy

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Remind me how much the 64 launched for in the UK? And then compare that to the Speccy

It was silly expensive compared to the Speccy, but probably on par with a lot of other machines of the era. Sinclair deserves a lot of credit for forcing prices down in the UK, even if they accomplished it by delivering the most bare bones solutions possible. I certainly couldn't have started my journey with computers had they not been that affordable.

[NorthWay]

Isometric on the C= 64 is lagging both due to the 6502 architecture and the size of the screenmodes.

As usual, you can do trade-offs, but it was kind of like with the Amiga and "Doom" tech games; it was an agreed upon truth that it was too slow for this style of game.

For example, for the screenmode itself you can use IRQs to stich up a 256 pixel wide mode based on swapping character sets down the screen (simply 32 characters wide and using tiles 0-255, then increasing the font pointer after all 256 have been displayed). You're still not getting a linear pixel layout, but the addressing can at least get a lot more regular.
Having a full 64K of memory gives options like unrolling code, using scratch memory to dynamically build code, set up pre-shifted copies of your graphics, or store a pristine copy of the rear-most layer of the graphics.
You could even experiment with clipping and rectangles where parts of any non-changing background could be built up from a mesh of hw sprites (up to a total of 192 pixels in width - hm... getting ideas here, see next paragraph) and potentially cut down on a lot of grunt needed to make it move.

With all that said and done, I find that the great irony is that isometric graphics are typically laid out in a 2x1 pixel alignment for the most pleasing projection (the C= 64 has two versions of Crystal Castles, the one from US Gold irks me with its perspective)...

[saimo]

Originally Posted by NorthWay

Isometric on the C= 64 is lagging both due to the 6502 architecture and the size of the screenmodes.

Emu's answer to that myth:

We got the Ultimate Filmation games (Knight Lore, Alien 8, Pentagram) up to the Spectrum speed level on the C64. It took a bit of work because we converted the Z80 code into 6502 first. The problem with that approach is what works well on the Z80 doesn’t work well on the 6502 and vice versa. So a lot of code had to be re-written and optimised for the 6502. That’s fine if you have the time to spend on the optimisation phase.

I’m sure a ground up 6502 conversion would have been more optimal (especially if hardware sprites were used) but it would have taken longer and been less accurate.

(My previous post contains the links to those games and other games.)

[Megalomaniac]

The C64's Hi-Res mode is clearly capable, especially when combined with other modes. The C64 seems to be summed up by having lots of different visual modes, all with strengths and weaknesses, but mostly quite combinable with each other? Part of why it cost so much compared to the Spectrum, which did less different things but did them in a consistent versatile and relatively learnable way, hence the results for games probably being better than Clive envisaged?

The fact that some of the most impressive creations are recent homebrew titles makes me wonder if the mode was a little unexploited in the day - perhaps because players where used to more colourful visuals and didn't really notice the higher resolution as much on their 14" CRTs?

NorthWay is probably right about isometric being a specific weakness of the C64, Doom on the Amiga (even a stock A1200) might be a good comparison. The 'and vice versa' in Emu (anyone in the Uk will understand their name, people elsewhere may not)'s quote is of course vital. Luckily the underlying code in the 4 games Rod and Emu converted is very similar. They and Head Over Heels are certainly all playable on the C64, but we're still talking monochrome unlike the Amstrad (which never got Pentagram), and slower than either Spectrum or Amstrad (Alien8's movement on the Amstrad is much more 'robot-like' especially).

Note that I did say

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

I'm not seeing ... any isometric games .... which manage to be colourful and fast

and I'll stand by that for now (except perhaps Spindizzy, which is a bit too fast for some, especially in the C64 scene).

[donnie]

C64 is the best "european" 8bit micro computer. The other ones are not even close.

What does it matter if you have higher resolution, slightly better palette if you cannot move graphics on screen.

Look at sams journey, there is nothing like that on the other ones.

sams journey

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zeta wing 2

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A pigs quest

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quod init exit 2

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steel ranger

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lester

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runn n gunn

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[saimo]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

The C64's Hi-Res mode is clearly capable, especially when combined with other modes. The C64 seems to be summed up by having lots of different visual modes, all with strengths and weaknesses, but mostly quite combinable with each other?

The C64 doesn't have a single hires mode, but has 3 hires modes, and hires characters can also be used (with limitations) in the multicolor (lores) character mode. That's all without CPU intervention (with the CPU, optionally using sprites, tons of other spectacular modes can be achieved).

The fact that some of the most impressive creations are recent homebrew titles makes me wonder if the mode was a little unexploited in the day - perhaps because players where used to more colourful visuals and didn't really notice the higher resolution as much on their 14" CRTs?

Hires modes have always been used much less than multicolor modes. The EBCM mode, in particular, has been underused - and that's precisely one of the reasons why I decided to make the first QUOD INIT EXIT GAME (the second one adds unlimited scrolling, dynamic charset switching, dynamic background color changing, animations and even a little parallax effect).

NorthWay is probably right about isometric being a specific weakness of the C64

He's certainly wrong, instead: as Emu's ports prove, even if the games' code has been transpiled and optimized only in places, instead of having been entirely written by hand to make it optimal, and their engines don't use sprites (which could help - but Emu has been working also on that: check out his posts on Lemon64 for details), the games run as fast as on the ZX Spectrum already. A game written entirely and specifically for the C64 would perform and look even better.

The 'and vice versa' in Emu (anyone in the Uk will understand their name, people elsewhere may not)'s quote is of course vital.

It simply means that transpiling code dumbly doesn't produce optimal results. That's relative to just the CPUs valid for all CPUs.

Luckily the underlying code in the 4 games Rod and Emu converted is very similar. They and Head Over Heels are certainly all playable on the C64, but we're still talking monochrome unlike the Amstrad (which never got Pentagram), and slower than either Spectrum or Amstrad (Alien8's movement on the Amstrad is much more 'robot-like' especially).

Slower than the ZX Spectrum versions they are not - Emu's and players' words.
As for colors, those games are faithful ports, not enhanced versions. From the Amstrad screenshots posted in this thread, it looks like the C64, with EBCM and sprites, could do even better.

Note that I did say ,

and I'll stand by that for now (except perhaps Spindizzy, which is a bit too fast for some, especially in the C64 scene).

So you know of a game already - that's more than no game I'm no isometric games expert and admittedly I know very few C64 games (never had much money, so as a kid I only had maybe 100-200 games, most of which were the small/partial ones contained in the tape compilations sold in newsstands), but an advanced search on Lemon64 with "isometric" reveals quite a number of games (including a few non-isometric ones, unfortunately) - maybe there you'll find what you're looking for
By the way, back in the 90ies, a friend of mine lent me his copy of Last Ninja 2, and I can certainly say that playing it from start to finish was quite an ecstatic colorful isometric experience !

[TCD]

Originally Posted by saimo

It simply means that transpiling code dumbly doesn't produce optimal results. That's relative to just the CPUs valid for all CPUs.

It's not limited to CPUs either as looking at quite few titles shared between the ST and Amiga show.

[saimo]

Originally Posted by TCD

It's not limited to CPUs either as looking at quite few titles shared between the ST and Amiga show.

I'm typing this stuff from a phone (can't be at a real keyboard for a week), which I'm not used to, so my comment, which was already too concise, got mangled. I'll try again.
I meant 3 things:
* Emu's comment was relative to just the transpiling, not the architectures of the machines;
* in general, transpiling is relative exclusively to the CPUs;
* the non-optimality of the code produced by a transpiler applies to any CPU.

As for your comment, I guess you're referring to the fact that porting dumbly, without properly exploiting the target machine's characteristics, produces sub-optimal results? Yes, sure.

[Cris1997XX]

Wow, you people really fell for this bait post? The Commodore 64 ISN'T the Amiga, and it will never be. Its resolution was perfectly adequate for 1982...next stupid question

[Zak]

Originally Posted by Cris1997XX

Wow, you people really fell for this bait post? The Commodore 64 ISN'T the Amiga, and it will never be. Its resolution was perfectly adequate for 1982...next stupid question

You obviously didn't understand the question, hence you can't answer it.

[donnie]

Originally Posted by Zak

You obviously didn't understand the question, hence you can't answer it.

Its obviously a compromise that had to be made.

But its the best compromise and best system of all 8-bit microcomputers. And its not even close.

I never owned an c64 back in the day, i have no nostalgia for any 8bit computer. I always hated the fuzzy lego block look.

But i bought one in 2018, and i have to say. Its fantastic micro. And when you see what the modern developers can do with it you will be amazed.

It can fucking scroll, animate backgrounds, show a ton of sprites flying around, at the same time. This is what is important.

Sams journey is a generation beyond anything on any other 8bit computer.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by donnie

C64 is the best "european" 8bit micro computer. The other ones are not even close.

What does it matter if you have higher resolution, slightly better palette if you cannot move graphics on screen.

Look at sams journey, there is nothing like that on the other ones.

Sam's Journey is lovely and certainly shows what the C64 can do. I think it's a testament to how far homebrew coders have (and continue to) push old machines. But the other platforms certainly have plenty of examples to show they too can "move graphics around on screen":

Seraphima (Spectrum)

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Old Tower (Spectrum)

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R-Type Remake (Amstrad)

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BB4CPC (Amstrad)

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Pinball Dreams (Amstrad)

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Ghosts and Goblins (Amstrad+)

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Personally I think we should celebrate all these machines and long may releases on all of them continue.

[lmimmfn]

There is no "best 8bit system", each has advantages/disadvantages and different compromises whether tech or price.

I do think its fun having discussion on the various c64 gfx modes/examples etc. and discussing capabilities of various machines.

[Megalomaniac]

The CPC or Spectrum probably couldn't match Sam's Journey, but I doubt the C64 could match CPC Pinball Dreams (I'm not sure the ST could match that either, Obsession shows that the STe could) for example. The R-Type and Bubble Bobble remakes definitely back up the theory that Amstrad owners often got a raw deal (similarly to, say, Final Fight Enhanced and Bomb Jack Beer Edition on the Amiga) - the CPC got a lot of dumbly transpiled code as saimo put it, not to mention badly ported monochromatic visuals.

I'd say Gandalf and Gluf from earlier in the thread are more impressive Spectrum showcases than what's been picked here - Old Tower's play area is quite small, while Seraphima is pushing the limits of what people thought the Spectrum could do in 1990, rather than exceeding them.

C64 Last Ninja 2 is indeed impressive, I wonder if those techniques could be used to make a Z80esque arcade adventure?

That last line about celebrating them alll (and the BBC and Atari and Enterprise and the rest) is true, perhaps also some frustration at where professional coders didn't always find the potential for various reasons.