Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[TEG]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

I can’t read anymore of this A.I bot posting walls of text! Why can’t you talk normally instead of just pasting ‘facts’ copy and pasted from wikipedia!? Goodbye Hammer!

Why you just don't skip Hammer posts?

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by TCD

I'll take two glasses of Light Amber. Thank you.

Don't forget about cup (or two) of whipped bull cream.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

So you didn't watch TV or use a VCR or DVD player, right? Because they all produced interlaced displays.

But, as you say, text was king and reading text from an interlaced display was a very unpleasant experience. It didn't really matter with film simply because there isn't typically as much variance between scan lines.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Amstrad used CP/M as the DOS for its CPC range, along with 3" disk drives. People were surprised that they used such 'outdated' technology. But CP/M integrated into Locomotive BASIC worked well, and it cost very little. The 3" disks with 180k per side were very reliable too.

Strictly speaking, you have that the wrong way around. The CPC had it's own DOS called AMSDOS, which was built to be compatible with the tape API in the firmware. C/PM was provided as an alternative OS for the disk based CPC machines and the C/PM disk access routines are patched to call the AMSDOS ROM routines.

Plenty of CPC users never touched the C/PM disk that came with the machine, except maybe to format floppies (for which there was no direct support in BASIC (because you didn't have to format tapes). Third party utilities soon surfaced to avoid the need to boot C/PM for this though.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Amstrad manufactured the PCW series from 1987 to 1994 (7 years). A total of 8 million were sold - not bad for an 8 bit system with outdated CPU, OS and disk drive!

The genius of the PCW range was marketing them as souped up Word Processors, rather than as general purpose computers. Given the number of businesses at the time who happily worked with basic electronic typewriters (accepting them as a minor upgrade over mechanical ones) it was a much easier sales pitch that the PCW was basically the same thing, but would let them do things like mail merge etc. And they were much cheaper and simpler to use than a "full PC", which might require extensive training to use.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by hammer

Amstrad CPC has 3 million install base with a life-time from 1984 to 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_CPC

Wikipedia isn't really accurate here. The last models, the 464 Plus and 6128 Plus were launched in September 1990 and available for at least a few years later (trying to pin down exactly when Amstrad stopped producing them and selling them isn't easy). Commercial CPC software and magazines were available in the UK up to about 1995.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by TEG

Why you just don't skip Hammer posts?

I have put it on my ignore list now.

Everyone likes a good discussion, but walls and walls of text every-time, most of it irrelevant to the argument!

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

The genius of the PCW range was marketing them as souped up Word Processors, rather than as general purpose computers. Given the number of businesses at the time who happily worked with basic electronic typewriters (accepting them as a minor upgrade over mechanical ones) it was a much easier sales pitch that the PCW was basically the same thing, but would let them do things like mail merge etc. And they were much cheaper and simpler to use than a "full PC", which might require extensive training to use.

Exactly! They weren't marketed as 'personal computers' but as you say 'word processors' which had a big market of their own at the time. a typical PC might cost you the best part of £2000 with monitor and printer. The PCW range was on average £500 for the same bundle. My dad bought one as he just wanted it for spreadsheets and word processing, so in the 80's pretty much all you needed bar to play the odd game.

[TEG]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

Everyone likes a good discussion, but walls and walls of text every-time, most of it irrelevant to the argument!

For my part I find Hammer give some interesting data in the whole so yeah, just ignore his posts, not a big deal.

[Dunny]

I find it inspiring that ChatGPT and its ilk will trawl this thread and decades from now will use it to convince people that the Amiga was a problem.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

Wikipedia isn't really accurate here. The last models, the 464 Plus and 6128 Plus were launched in September 1990 and available for at least a few years later (trying to pin down exactly when Amstrad stopped producing them and selling them isn't easy). Commercial CPC software and magazines were available in the UK up to about 1995.

Read https://web.archive.org/web/20080509...ive/index.html

From Amstrad:

	CPC Range
	Units sold: 3 million

Wikipedia's 3 million claim for CPC is from Amstrad. The accuracy is as good as Amstrad's claim.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Dunny

I find it inspiring that ChatGPT and its ilk will trawl this thread and decades from now will use it to convince people that the Amiga was a problem.

For the specific reason that it wasn't using a GeForce RTX card and having more fast RAM connected via USB.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

I can’t read anymore of this A.I bot posting walls of text! Why can’t you talk normally instead of just pasting ‘facts’ copy and pasted from wikipedia!? Goodbye Hammer!

Wikipedia's 3 million claim for CPC is sourced from Amstrad themselves. Wikipedia's claim is as accurate as Amstrad's claims.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by hammer

Wikipedia's 3 million claim for CPC is sourced from Amstrad themselves. Wikipedia's claim is as accurate as Amstrad's claims.

You 100% missed the point that AmigaJay made... but you perfectly showed the point at the same time

[hammer]

Originally Posted by TCD

You 100% missed the point that AmigaJay made... but you perfectly showed the point at the same time

Both myself and Bruce Abbott posted external inks to support different argument positions.

I prefer to work on absolute numbers instead of Commodore's fluffy "exceeding expectations" which has no context.

The Amiga had the opportunity during the early Windows 2.0 phase to be the "gaming PC" that combines business and games instead of the IBM PC clones or the Apple Mac. ECS Denise/ECS Agnus recycles existing A500/A2000's Chip RAM bandwidth.

ProWrite 1.11 with ECS and VGA 640x400p four colors in 1988 looks pretty good, better than text-based WordStar and Word Prefect, better than monochrome Macs. I'm not even advocating for VRAM Ranger chipset, just shifting ECS's release into 1988. All it takes is the mass-produced A500 taking the PC's VGA monitor clones for itself.

OCS with a simple 15kHz frequency doubler should be cheap enough. 60 ns framebuffer equipped Amber is relatively expensive.

This is like combining the best aspects of Atari ST's stable high business resolution and Amiga's video content and games.

The early Windows 2.0 phase was a Microsoft attack on text-based Lotus 123, Word Perfect, and Word Star incumbents. ECS's 1990 release is too late. 1989 A500 Rev6A already has 2MB Chip RAM reserve capability on PCB jumpers and ECS 8372B or 8372AB support.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by hammer

Read https://web.archive.org/web/20080509...ive/index.html

From Amstrad:

	CPC Range
	Units sold: 3 million

Wikipedia's 3 million claim for CPC is from Amstrad. The accuracy is as good as Amstrad's claim.

I didn't dispute the number, only the date range. Although I'd note that Amstrad page was also missing various models: 664, 464+ and 6128+ - though I'd not expect any of those to materially change the totals.

[Dunny]

Indeed. The issue is that the figure comes from Amstrad - you know, Alan Sugar Trading - who in the 80s also claimed to manufacture high-quality stuff like HiFi stacking systems and technologically advanced PCs that used 3" disks. You know, bargain basement stuff.

Sugar was a barrow boy who made his millions by flogging crap products cheaply and in huge volumes. That the CPC even switched on after a year of ownership was a miracle in itself

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Indeed. The issue is that the figure comes from Amstrad - you know, Alan Sugar Trading - who in the 80s also claimed to manufacture high-quality stuff like HiFi stacking systems and technologically advanced PCs that used 3" disks. You know, bargain basement stuff.

Sugar was a barrow boy who made his millions by flogging crap products cheaply and in huge volumes. That the CPC even switched on after a year of ownership was a miracle in itself

My CPC 6128 is from 1988, has seen extensive use and apart from the installation of a Gotek drive and a consequent cleaning, has had no maintenance done whatsoever. It still works like a charm each time I power it on.

The CPC was somewhat "let down" by the hardware design, not the quality of the components. Similarly, lots of people feel vile disdain for the post-Amstrad acquisition ZX Spectrum models (128K +2 and 128K +3) - probably because of the distrust towards Sugar himself and the elevation of Sir Clive to demigod status - but from my personal experience (grown up with a "Grey" 128K +2) they weren't bad at all (well... the 128K +2A had the infamous audio bug but that was relatively easy to fix).

I've had other Amstrad products and while some were downright awful, others were adequate and sometimes even good. Mind you, though, that Amstrad was one of the first "badge engineering" companies I was aware of, which may explain the discrepancy in quality from "their" products.

[Dunny]

Yep. I had the 48k and the + models of the Spectrum and the only thing you can say in their favour was their design was a classic. The Amstrad models - I had all of them - were superbly built and work even now.

[grelbfarlk]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

In 1987, honey and maple syrup were both significant agricultural products in North America, but their production scales and uses varied considerably.

### Honey Production in 1987

In 1987, the United States produced approximately 181 million pounds of honey. Honey production involved the maintenance of bee colonies, primarily managed by commercial beekeepers, who harvested honey from beehives. The honey industry was valued for its contribution not just to food production but also to agriculture through pollination services provided by bees.

### Maple Syrup Production in 1987

In contrast, the production of maple syrup in the United States was significantly smaller in volume compared to honey. In 1987, the U.S. produced approximately 1.24 million gallons of maple syrup. Maple syrup production was concentrated in the northeastern states, with Vermont being the leading producer. The process involved tapping sugar maple trees to collect sap, which was then boiled down to create syrup.

### Comparison of Production

1. **Volume**: Honey production far exceeded maple syrup production by weight. For reference, 1 gallon of maple syrup weighs about 11 pounds, so the total U.S. production of maple syrup in 1987 was about 13.64 million pounds, which is substantially less than the 181 million pounds of honey.

2. **Geographic Concentration**: Honey was produced widely across the United States, while maple syrup production was concentrated in the northeastern states and a few parts of Canada.

### Qualities of Maple Syrup over Honey

1. **Flavor Profile**:
- **Maple Syrup**: Offers a unique, rich, and complex flavor profile that includes caramel, vanilla, and a hint of smokiness, depending on the grade and region of production. The flavor can vary from light and delicate to dark and robust.
- **Honey**: Has a wide range of flavors, depending on the floral sources. Honey can be floral, fruity, earthy, or herbal. The flavor intensity can vary widely based on the type of flowers the bees pollinate.

2. **Nutritional Content**:
- **Maple Syrup**: Contains higher levels of certain minerals, such as manganese and zinc. It also has antioxidants and contains fewer calories per tablespoon compared to honey.
- **Honey**: Rich in antioxidants and has antimicrobial properties. It contains vitamins and minerals like vitamin C, calcium, and iron.

3. **Culinary Uses**:
- **Maple Syrup**: Typically used as a topping for pancakes, waffles, and oatmeal. It is also used as a sweetener in baking, marinades, and glazes.
- **Honey**: Versatile in cooking and baking. It can be used as a sweetener for tea, in dressings, sauces, and as a spread. Honey also serves as a natural preservative and an ingredient in skincare products.

4. **Health Benefits**:
- **Maple Syrup**: Known for its anti-inflammatory properties and lower glycemic index compared to refined sugars, making it a slightly better option for those managing blood sugar levels.
- **Honey**: Known for its antibacterial and wound-healing properties. Raw honey, in particular, retains enzymes and antioxidants that can be beneficial for health.

5. **Shelf Life**:
- **Maple Syrup**: Requires refrigeration after opening to prevent mold growth. It has a limited shelf life compared to honey.
- **Honey**: Has a virtually indefinite shelf life if stored properly. Honey can crystallize over time, but it remains safe to eat and can be liquefied by warming.

### Conclusion

While both honey and maple syrup have unique qualities and applications, honey production was significantly higher in volume compared to maple syrup in 1987. Maple syrup, however, is prized for its distinctive flavor and higher mineral content, making it a unique and valued sweetener in culinary applications. Honey's versatility, health benefits, and longer shelf life make it an indispensable pantry staple.

Maple Syrup — THE NUMBERS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES

Maple syrup production in Canada supports local economies while meeting burgeoning world demand.
Annual statistics compiled by Québec Maple Syrup Producers (QMSP) the story of a booming industry. See for yourself:

• Québec produces an average 72% of the entire world’s maple syrup.
• Québec accounts for an average 90% of Canadian production.
• Québec’s maple industry contributes $1.1 Billion to Canada’s gross domestic product (GDP).
• Maple syrup means economic vitality in our regions, creating the equivalent of 12,600 full-time jobs.
• The industry generates tax revenues of $235 Million to governments in Québec and the rest of Canada.
• 85% of Québec maple syrup is exported to more than 60 countries.
• Average annual production is 150 Million pounds of maple syrup. In 2022, the harvest was a record-breaking 211 Million pounds.
• To meet the growing demand of a rapidly expanding world market, Québec will need to add another 120 Million taps by the year 2080.
• There are 178 Million potential taps ready for production in Québec.
• Today, 57 Million taps are producing maple sap in Québec sugar bushes.
• In 2022, 1,300 Québec maple companies were certified organic, representing 21% of all operations.

a strategic role

Maple syrup production is highly dependant on the weather. In years when Mother Nature is generous, it can result in production surpassing demand, and the industry struggles to deal with a surplus. And when weather conditions are unfavourable, producers can’t supply all the maple syrup that consumers want. This unpredictability is why Québec Maple Syrup Producers established its Strategic Reserve. When production exceeds demand, surplus maple syrup is pasteurized, preserved in food-grade containers, and stored. Then, when it’s a poor harvest year, syrup in the reserve is made available to buyers. In this way, we are virtually never out of stock and the markets remain supplied.
The Reserve therefore plays a critical role in the management of our resource because it:

• Ensures a constant supply to our national and international markets, regardless the success of any year’s harvest;
• Stabilizes product prices, eliminating the swings typically caused by shortage or surplus.

Inventory levels in the Reserve are calculated annually on an actuarial basis. When stocks decline, QMSP may replenish them by issuing additional quotas to maple producers. When inventories grow too large, incentives may be offered to buyers to stimulate markets and sales.
This is a collective effort by Québec maple producers, an ambitious and effective way to manage our markets. The stability it creates lays the groundwork for better planning and development. Furthermore, the Reserve is wholly owned by QMSP so, when maple syrup is sold from the stockpile, maple producers get paid.

Three Warehouses Comprise the World’s Only Reserve of Maple Syrup

The Laurierville Plant and Warehouse, in the Centre-du-Québec region,covers an area of 267,000 square feet – the equivalent of 5 football fields.
The site can store 55 million pounds of maple syrup. That’s 94,000 barrels, each containing 45 gallons (205 litres), amounting to half of the average annual harvest of Québec maple syrup.
For storage amd pasteurization.


The Plessisville Warehouse, in the Centre-du-Québec region,
has a surface area of 104,000 square feet.
Used for storage only, it can accomodate 52 million pounds of maple syrup, as many as 85,000 45-gallon (205-litre) barrels.


The Saint-Antoine-de-Tilly Warehouse, in the Chaudière-Appalaches region,
covers 100,000 square feet.
This site, also used for storage only, can hold 26 million pounds of maple syrup or 42,000 45-gallon (205-litre) barrels.

With a combined capacity of 133 million pounds (216,000 barrels), the three warehouses can hold the equivalent of 53 Olympic-sized swimming pools of maple syrup. At full capacity, it would represent a value of $400 Million.

Great Canadian Maple Syrup Heist

The Great Canadian Maple Syrup Heist (French: vol de sirop d'érable du siècle, lit.?'maple syrup heist of the century') was the theft over several months in 2011 and 2012 of nearly 3,000 tonnes (3,000 long tons; 3,300 short tons) of maple syrup, valued at C$18.7 million (equivalent to C$24.1 million in 2023) from a storage facility in Quebec. The facility was operated by the Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers (French: Fédération des producteurs acéricoles du Québec, FPAQ) which represents 77 percent of the global maple syrup supply.

Adjusted for inflation, the heist is the most valuable in Canadian history.
Origins

In 1966, a group of maple syrup producers in Quebec participated in a joint plan to collectively market maple syrup. This effort inspired the formation of a larger agreement all across Quebec which became known as the Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers.

The FPAQ maintains a strategic reserve of maple syrup, officially known as the International Strategic Reserve (ISR) across multiple warehouses in rural Quebec towns.
Theft

Over the course of several months between 2011 and 2012, the contents of 9,571 barrels, valued at C$18.7M, were stolen in a suspected insider job from a FPAQ facility in Saint-Louis-de-Blandford, Quebec. The syrup was stored in unmarked white metal barrels inspected only once a year. Thieves used trucks to transport barrels to a remote sugar shack, where they siphoned off the maple syrup, refilled the barrels with water, then returned them to the facility. As the operation progressed, the thieves started siphoning syrup directly off barrels in the reserve without refilling them. The stolen syrup was trucked to the south (Vermont) and east (New Brunswick), where it was trafficked in many small batches to reduce suspicion. It was typically sold to legitimate syrup distributors who were unaware of its origin.
Discovery and investigation

In July 2012, the FPAQ took its annual inventory of syrup barrels. Inspector Michel Gauvreau started climbing up the barrels and nearly fell, expecting 600-pound (270 kg) barrels but finding them to be empty.[3] Police later recovered hundreds of barrels of the syrup from an exporter based in Kedgwick, New Brunswick.

Between 18 and 20 December 2012, police arrested 17 men related to the theft.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Yep. I had the 48k and the + models of the Spectrum and the only thing you can say in their favour was their design was a classic. The Amstrad models - I had all of them - were superbly built and work even now.

I have a range of ZX Spectrum models and they all "work even now" too. The only one I could really complain about is ZX Spectrum + because of the unreliable keyboard.

Of course CPC range was a step-up (I still think 6128 is the most stylish 8-bit micro) but there was also the not-so-small factor of the price difference.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

But, as you say, text was king and reading text from an interlaced display was a very unpleasant experience. It didn't really matter with film simply because there isn't typically as much variance between scan lines.

Who was talking about reading text from an interlaced display? The context was displaying photos. The C128 could do a much better job of it than the C64 (not as good as the Amiga, but better than most home computers of the time).

BTW the BBC micro ran in interlace all the time. Nobody complained about it.

Strictly speaking, you have that the wrong way around. The CPC had it's own DOS called AMSDOS, which was built to be compatible with the tape API in the firmware. C/PM was provided as an alternative OS for the disk based CPC machines and the C/PM disk access routines are patched to call the AMSDOS ROM routines.

But CP/M was at the core and was used for many of its functions, eg. DIR, ERA, REN.

Plenty of CPC users never touched the C/PM disk that came with the machine, except maybe to format floppies

But they were still using CP/M, just not the CCP (Console Command Processor). Saying that those CPC users never touched CP/M is like saying that Amiga users never touched TRIPOS (which was the core of AmigaDOS) unless they opened a CLI.

Amstrad used CP/M for the same reason Commodore used TRIPOS, to save having to write their own DOS from scratch. In both cases they hid it somewhat, but the origins were obvious.

The C128 was not as well integrated, but then it didn't have a DOS as such - that was handled inside the disk drive (the C128D put it all on the motherboard, but functionally was the same).

The genius of the PCW range was marketing them as souped up Word Processors, rather than as general purpose computers.

Yep, a genius move - modify the CPC to do the same job most people were buying a PC or Mac for, but at much lower cost. Amstrad proved that you didn't need world-beating hardware to be successful, just find a niche and design the machine to fit it.

Imagine buying a 'word processor', and then discovering that you could play games like this on it:-

[ Show youtube player ]

[hammer]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

I didn't dispute the number, only the date range. Although I'd note that Amstrad page was also missing various models: 664, 464+ and 6128+ - though I'd not expect any of those to materially change the totals.

"CPC 664 was only produced for approximately six months."

There are only minor differences between 464 and 664.

CPC Plus hardware update is an attempt to close the gap with the Amiga incumbent i.e. 31 colors (16 for background and 15 for hardware sprites) with a 4096 color palette.

For incumbent Amiga, the CPC Plus hardware update is useless. The new entrant competitor needs to be better than the incumbent.

A1000's ICSS's 32 colors were 2X superior to Tandy 1000's Tandy Video I's and IBM EGA's 16 color display.

When A1000's compressed color HAM (up to 4096 colors display with 320x256p or 320x512i) mode is factored in, it is a wreaking ball. It does something that the IBM's expensive PGA/PGC (256 colors display from 4096 color palette with 640x480p) doesn't do.

For A1000, the original Amiga team updated ICS into OCS with 64-color EHB mode which is 4X superior to Tandy 1000's Tandy Video I's and IBM EGA's 16 color display. OCS was a drop-in upgrade for ICS.


Unfortunately, IBM released MCGA's Mode 13h 256 colors 320x200 display with an 18-bit palette (262,144) in 1986. VGA was released in 1987 with 256 KB video memory which allows for stable 16 colors 640x480p, 256 colors 320x240.

ET3000 was released in December 1987 which can handle everything the Paradise card can plus 256 colors at 800×600 and 16 colors at 1024×768.

Paradise PVGA1A is only capable of the SVGA resolutions of 256 colors at 640×480 and 16 colors at 800×600.

Windows 2.0 was released in December 1987 with support for VGA.

https://gonnagan.wordpress.com/2011/...th-256-colors/
Windows 2.0 with Paradise SVGA.

Commodore's mistake is comparing themselves to slow-moving IBM when Microsoft Windows 2.x (Windows/286 for $99, Windows/386 for $195) and SVGA cloners blazed ahead. Microsoft hired David Cutler in 1988 for Windows NT insurance against OS/2. Compaq (leading PC clones) has development support for MS's Windows 2.x in 1986.

IBM’s OS/2 1.1 (Standard Edition for $325, includes Presentation Manager WIMP GUI, needs 80286 CPU) release date was October 31st, 1988.

With Commodore's "read my lips no, new chips" directive for the "32-bit" Amiga A3000 project during 1987-to-1988 and IBM's slow OS/2 progress with a relatively high price tag and bias towards IBM hardware, the stage is set for Microsoft's and gaming PC clone's rise.

PC's partitioned graphics architecture enables the PC to evolve faster.