22 May 2024, 14:32 | #4661 | |||||||||
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Take for example that 'premier' Amiga game from 1986, Defender of the Crown. It showed off the Amiga's amazing graphics and sound, yet in 1987 it was ported to the PC in EGA and CGA. Why would they 'murder' it like that? Because PC gamers would lap it up even in crappy CGA, and because the PC was just as popular a gaming platform (globally) as the Amiga. We see the same pattern with other games. Far more Amiga games were ported to the PC than vice versa. Why? In 1992 the average PC was a 386SX with 1MB RAM and standard VGA, no more powerful than an A1200. Yet far more games were produced for PC VGA than AGA, despite the A4000 having similar performance to a 486. The reason - not the hardware, but the much larger installed base and ubiquity of the PC. Now you might say what you meant by 'premier' was not that the Amiga was the most important or leading platform, but that it had the best gaming hardware. But in that case what about the X68000? Sure it was unknown outside Japan (just like the A1000 was unknown outside the US in 1985-6), but it had hardware rivaling the best arcade machines. And it was introduced in 1987 just like the A500. Shouldn't we be holding that up as the 'premier game platform'? Quote:
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Hardly surprising that Commodore wasn't doing anything in 1995, but they didn't need to. By 1993 they had already given game developers everything they needed to produce OS friendly games. But hey, there's no denying that Commodore not being around in 1995 was disappointing... Last edited by Bruce Abbott; 22 May 2024 at 14:41. |
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22 May 2024, 17:33 | #4662 |
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AGA support 8 bit bypass so technically you can use RAMDAC supporting 8 bit bus (such as Sierra SC11481, SC11486, SC11488) and produce HiColor video.
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22 May 2024, 17:51 | #4663 | |
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BYPASS=0So data in chipram is still planar, only the colour-lookup is skipped in this mode. This is rather useless. I am talking about a full Bypass for chunky 16bit values: read a 16bit word and pass that value directly to R(4:0), G(5:0), R(4:0) (add a shift register, to read 4 16bit values at once and feed the values to the DAC one after the other ...) in DoubleCAS mode (64bit reads) this would give you a HiRES (640x256) screen with 16bit per pixel (use LoRES for leaving some DMA cycles free for Blitter and CPU) Last edited by Gorf; 22 May 2024 at 17:57. |
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22 May 2024, 18:31 | #4664 |
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For specific European releases it most likely had. There were quite a few titles between 1990 and 1993 published in Europe that were developed 'primarily' for the Amiga platform. Granted those were dwarfed by Japanese and US sales numbers, but a few of them actually made it from Europe to those markets.
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22 May 2024, 18:46 | #4665 | |
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We have mentionned them already, probably in this very looping thread. |
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22 May 2024, 18:49 | #4666 | |
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If it were easy, we'd have seen swathes of Wolfenstein clones flooding the market back when it was the big thing and we really haven't over all these years. Some sort of hardware C2P solution was clearly necessary, the question is whether Akiko was really enough. The somewhat premature demise of CD32 means we'll never know for sure. |
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22 May 2024, 19:18 | #4667 | |
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You are complaining about OCS\ECS\AGA not able to form chunky organization in planar based memory - to do so your modulo registers should allow interleaving at pixel level not line level. You can try to add some C2P after bypass - then you need to have small memory and some shuffle logic so you can threat each 4, 8 pixels on bitplane as chunky (or packed planar) - in theory using shires single bitplane you can have 160 pixel at 8 bit chunky or 320 pixel packed planar. Using two shires bitplanes you can have 320 pixel 8 bit chunky or 640 pixel packed planar. This and modulo may even work efficiently (let say even lines are left half and odd lines right half of such chunky). |
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22 May 2024, 19:53 | #4668 |
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Let me see it Again: Over The top!
Lea $dff180,a5 move.l $00001111,(a5)+ ; $180-2 at once! move.l $22223333,(a5)+ ; $184-6 at once! How is that possible? How was Motorola able to do so?? Some sourcery How does copper work? The exact same way but with redundancy: dc.w $0180,$0000 dc.w $0182,$1111 ..... First Copper has to point to the register ($180(, and then it has to store the value... WIth one small change, without any new bus/mem logic, you can almost double the Move performance: dc.w $0180,$0000 ; load and store the first register dc.w $1111 ; store new data to $0182 dc.w $2222 ; store new data to $0184 Do this with CAS and DoubleCas for even faster performance with few changes if any! It doesn't seem rocket science to me... |
22 May 2024, 20:16 | #4669 | ||||
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No it is not, since these 8 bits are still spread across 8 different bitplanes This is not a chunky mode nor is it a real 16bit mode. Quote:
It is of the shelf DRAM in a continuous address region. How the data in such region is organized or what such data represents is entirely up to the system. Quote:
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That defies the purpose of such bypass. Quote:
you are thinking WAY to complicated! no need to shuffle anything around - just grab one word of data from ChipRAM at one single address and but that exact word, without any alteration, to the data-lines of the DAC/Vidiot Last edited by Gorf; 22 May 2024 at 20:23. |
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22 May 2024, 20:26 | #4670 | ||
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You need to select (specify) one (1) and the chip will expect data for this specific register and not for any other Quote:
Last edited by Gorf; 22 May 2024 at 20:40. |
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22 May 2024, 21:07 | #4671 | ||||
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No, no, no - to form chunky in Amiga you need single bitplane - 1280 pixel wide super hires will give you 160 pixel wide chunky.
Hires 640 will give you 80 pixel wide chunky. If you need more horizontal pixels then you need to fold more bitplanes but Amiga chipset prevent possibility to set bitplane pointers to form chunky like structure (for example BPL1PTH/BPL1PTL at $10000, BPL2PTH/BPL2PTL at $10002, BPL3PTH/BPL3PTL at$10004, BPL4PTH/BPL4PTL at $10006). If this could be possible then C2P will be straightforward at the end let say composer. Quote:
With external logic you can do C2P. Quote:
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To "fix" chipset of course. And it not defies anything - this is like modifier of data feed by chipset. Quote:
Alternatively you can use UHRES logic and for example set some video frame buffer from $A00000 to $B80000 so you can get additional chunky plane. Last edited by pandy71; 22 May 2024 at 21:33. |
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22 May 2024, 22:30 | #4672 | ||||
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forget about how it is traditionally done on the Amiga -that has nothing to do with my simple approach.
Scrap that from your mind for a moment. Quote:
You need a "wordplane" - or simpler: just one continuous region of memory. Quote:
Forget all c2p or p2c. That has no place in my idea. Quote:
Forget Denise/Lisa - she is totally sitting on the bench in this game. Agnus needs to do only one thing: Call one sequential memory address after the other - just a +1 loop Quote:
Of course it is not! That is why I outlined this idea! |
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22 May 2024, 23:11 | #4673 | |
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Designing something entirely different is easy (personally I'd expand the number of registers a copper write can access if I were doing that, but that's just me) - designing it and keeping it compatible with what already exists is the hard part. |
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23 May 2024, 00:22 | #4674 | ||||
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In non Amiga case you just design chunky or hi color or true color plane organization and there is no need to talk about bypass. Quote:
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Wakey wakey sleeping beauty - this is Amiga forum - once again doing graphics card from ground you are free to use any memory and data organization but in case of Amiga you simply need to adapt already existing design. So or you need to accept single bitplane limitations or use few bitplanes but with quasi chunky way so they can be considered as single large bitplane. This is impossible as Amiga display hardware was designed in a way to prevent creating single large bitplane - modulo granularity is simply too high - at some point you are going to recreate A2024 idea. |
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23 May 2024, 01:08 | #4675 | ||||
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I think I made this clear over an over... I presented an idea, how a very simple 16bit chunky output could have been archived. Quote:
Not so hard to understand - is it? Quote:
We are talking here since hundreds of pages of alternative solutions ... This was just my answer to sandruzzo's idea of a modified Copper that would provide higher resolution "copper chunky" To this I said it would be much easier and more bandwidth efficient to just create a Bypass and feed the DAC/Vidiot directly Quote:
Please follow the thread and the arguments This is just simple proposal how 16bit chunky (without CLUT) could have been realized with minimal changes - ON AN AGA AMIGA So I present an idea, what could have been done differently and saying so explicitly from the very beginning - and your criticism is: "but that is not how they did it" Really?? |
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23 May 2024, 03:39 | #4676 | |
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This is assuming the Amiga remains in Chip RAM-only configuration. 3D needs compute power and stock 68EC020 @ 7 Mhz effective is weak. The entire Lisa/Chip RAM display path can be bypassed if there's a display adapter on faster Fast RAM and faster compute processor i.e. DSP3210 @ 25 Mhz or 68EC020-25 or higher. With a bypass display model, an Amiga game or application with chunky pixel usage would trigger the switch over to the new display adapter. 32 bit x 50 Mhz memory bus is 200 MB/s which rivals 3DO's. CD32 FMV card has a separate chunky pixels display path from AGA. This is a cheap SVGA-like display. CD32 FMV card's chunky pixels display has 24 bit true color display at Hollywood framerates. Too bad the FMV card wasn't a general purpose for the Amiga use case i.e. 3D math accelerator, fast MPEG decode, chunky pixels display, and local Fast RAM. Bitplanes for 2D action. Chunky pixels for 3D action. SNES has 256 color chunky pixels mode, but still needs cheap DSP or SuperFX math acceleration. Last edited by hammer; 23 May 2024 at 06:25. |
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23 May 2024, 04:48 | #4677 |
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A1200 needed at least blast processing.
Taking advantage of a hardware feature in the Yamaha YM7101 VDP graphics processor's DMA unit. On a Mega Drive, it is possible to change the colour palette during the H-blank interval by "DMA-ing" (a.k.a. "blasting") information into CRAM (Color RAM). However, doing so has the (usually) unwanted side effect of creating CRAM dots - rogue pixels which would corrupt the image if the trick was used too often. Despite this, mid-frame colour palette changes were not unusual on the Mega Drive - Sonic the Hedgehog uses this trick whenever it needs to display water in Labyrinth Zone, and masks the CRAM dots by drawing a flickering water surface sprite roughly where the palette changeover occurs. However, if the programmer knew when these CRAM Dots were likely to appear, a screen could be drawn just by rapidly changing the palette (i.e. the whole image would be drawn with the CRAM dots glitch). Initially it was thought that this technique could be used to generate 256-colour images. With EGS 110/24 A1200 could:
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23 May 2024, 05:09 | #4678 | ||||||||||||||||
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Hint: PC VGA games that didn't use VGA's full 256 color capability and were ported from the Amiga OCS/ECS. Similar artwork quality results are due to the lowest common denominator.
For example, [ Show youtube player ] PC VGA's Lotus 3 artwork quality is similar to the Amiga OCS version. When PC VGA artwork quality games kicked in, Amiga OCS struggled. Quote:
"Atari ST" artwork influence on Amiga OCS. "Amiga OCS" artwork influence on PC VGA. Quote:
"Atari ST" artwork influence on Amiga OCS games. "Amiga OCS" artwork influence on PC VGA games ----- Mode 13h is available on 1986 MCGA. 1987 VGA encapsulates MCGA. VGA's display parameters and 256-color use case were based on IBM PGA! Stock PGA monitor can be tweaked for VGA monitor use. There is a continuous R&D for IBM PC's 256-color use case. Cloners made VGA cheap. Quote:
According to Dataquest November 1989, VGA crossed more than 50 percent market share in 1989 i.e. 56%. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/c...lysis_1989.pdf Low-End PC Graphics Market Share by Standard Type Estimated Worldwide History and Forecast Total low-end PC graphic chipset shipment history and forecast 1987 = 9.2. million, VGA 16.4% market share i.e. 1.5088 million VGA. 1988 = 11.1 million, VGA 34.2% i.e. 1.51 million VGA. 1989 = 13.7 million, VGA 54.6% i.e. 3.80 million VGA. 1990 = 14.3 million, VGA 66.4% i.e. 9.50 million VGA. Wing Commander VGA and Windows 3.0 1990 releases. 1991 = 15.8 million, VGA 76.6% i.e. 12.10 million VGA. 1992 = 16.4 million, VGA 84.2% i.e. 13.81 million VGA. 1993 = 18.3 million, VGA 92.4% i.e. 16.9 million VGA. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/...-of-commodore/ 27,000 A1000? 1987 Amiga sales are 400,000 sales which is not bad against VGA's 1.5 million VGA sales. 1988 Amiga sales are +600,000 sales which is not bad against VGA's 1.51 million VGA sales. 1989 Amiga sales are +640,000 sales against VGA's 3.80 million VGA sales. 1990 Amiga sales are +810,000 sales against VGA's 9.50 million VGA sales. Wing Commander VGA and Windows 3.0 1990 releases. 1991 Amiga sales are 1 million sales against VGA's 12.10 million VGA sales. 1992 Amiga sales fall to 780,000 sales. A600 was released, A500 was canceled, and a $366 million loss. The estimate for the Amiga AGA install base is about 600,000 units. Around 500,000 AGA units were gained in the 1993 year. PC VGA needs killer apps for its "Defender of the Crown" moment e.g. the twin Wing Commander VGA and Windows 3.0 1990 releases. VGA sales experienced a large-scale sales jump. https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufac...tseng_labs.php By 1991, according to IDC, Tseng Labs held a 25% market share in the total VGA market. When there were 12.10 million VGA in 1991, about 2.66 million were Tseng Labs VGA clones. Somebody is ignoring market intelligence. Quote:
From https://www.intel.fr/content/dam/doc...ual-report.pdf Intel reported the following 1. In 1994's fourth quarter, Pentium unit sales accounted for 23 percent of Intel's desktop processor volume. 2. Millions of Pentiums were shipped. 3. During Q4 1993 and 1994, a typical PC purchase was a computer featuring the Intel 486 chip. 4. Net 1994 revenue reached $11.5 billion. 5. Net 1993 revenue reached $8.7 billion. 6. Growing demand and production for Intel 486 resulted in a sharp decline in sales for Intel 386 from 1992 to 1993. 7. Sales of the Intel 486 family comprised the majority of Intel's revenue during 1992, 1993, and 1994. 8. Intel reached its 6 to 7 million Pentiums shipped goal during 1994. This is only 23 percent unit volume. Due to PC vendors directly competing against each other, fast X86 CPUs are being bundled, hence creating a self-sustain cycle for the faster X86 PCs with a downward pressure on the distributor's profit margins. For Australia : 1. during 1992, 386DX-33/40 PC reaches the A500 with 1084S monitor 1989 price range. 2. during 1993, 486SX-33 PC reaches the A500 with 1084S monitor 1989 price range. Without intense competition, the PC world stagnates e.g. Intel's "quad-core forever" until AMD releases Ryzen. Quote:
A4000/040@25Mhz's Doom performance is above A1200 with 68030 @ 50Mhz. [ Show youtube player ] 486SX-25's Doom II performance [ Show youtube player ] 386DX-33 with ET4000AX's Doom [ Show youtube player ] In absolute terms, 486's VLB (VESA Local Bus) is faster than the Super Buster's Zorro III and Ramsey bus that is designed for 68030 sync mode 25 Mhz. 486SX-33, 486DX-33, and 486DX2-66 have VLB and memory at 33 Mhz. Amiga's near equivalent is 3rd party CPU accelerator with Local Fast RAM beyond the sync mode of 25 Mhz. A4000/040 is a joke with a hacked-in 68040 A3640 card. Commodore didn't have a native 68040-based Amiga. An A4000/040 owner would need to purchase something like CPU-less WarpEngine with 040 bus coupled with local Fast RAM and reuse A3640's 68040-25 CPU. The price difference between A3000T/030 and A3000T/040 is about $400 for an A3640 card. A3000/A4000 wasn't partitioned like Commodore Canada/Amitech's A2200 clone (CD32 + Amitech's Agent 88). Quote:
Commodore didn't counter the Am386DX-40-based PC in 1992 with an Amiga equivalent is Commodore's fault. Commodore (driven by Commodore Germany's agenda) sold PC clones in the mid-price range instead! The Amiga doesn't have a clone market where clone vendors find gaps in the price segments and offer an Amiga solution. Commodore Canada had the right idea with Amitech's A2200 clones that are based on mass-produced CD32 cards. Commodore could have sold CD32 motherboards to Amiga cloners who could plug the gaps in Amiga's product stack. Commodore ran out of time and the warehouse was locked up. Again, http://archive.computerhistory.org/r...-05-01-acc.pdf Page 86 of 417, DataQuest 1995 1994 Worldwide Microprocessor Market Share Ranking. For 1994 Market Share 1. Intel, 73.2% 2. AMD, 8.6% 3. Motorola, 5.2% 4. IBM, 2.2% Motorola's revenue in 1994 was less than AMD's. ------------- Supply Base for 32-Bit Microprocessors—1994, For Product's Share of Total 32-Bit-and-Up MPU Market 1994 Page 89 of 417, 68000, 17% 80386SX/SL, 3% 80386DX, 3% 80486SX, 16% 80486DX, 21% 683XX, 9% 68040, 3% 68030, 1% 68020, 3% 80960, 4% AM29000, 1% 32X32, 3% R3000/R4000, 1% Sparc, 1% Pentium, 4% Others, 10% Motorola wasn't able to convert 68000's success for 68020, 68030 and 68040. Quote:
2. X68000 platform is a single source. X68000's unit sales are less than 200,000, worse than AGA's total install base. The Sharp x68000 was the workstation for several Japanese studios used for their art assets, also its hardware was very close to Capcom's CPS arcade board. SNES was the preferred mass deployment for Capcom's CPS games. 3. PC clone army beats NEC's X86-based PC-98 samurai. 4. Fujitsu's X86-based FM Towns samurai was also defeated by PC clones. Solo samurai or Jedi was no match against a clone army i.e. "Death by a thousand cuts" or "Quantity has a quality all its own". ARM's approach is to engage against the X86 with a clone army of its own i.e. clone army vs droid army. Apple, Sony(PlayStation), and Nintendo exceptional solos that mastered their market niche. Quote:
PC VGA doesn't need Copper tricks for displaying more than 32 colors. Compaq is a PC cloner that was part of "the gang of nine". The gang of nine would be headless without Microsoft's MS-DOS/Windows. Amiga has a "game console" hardware generation transition behavior. Quote:
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1. PC VGA doesn't need extra "Copper tricks" for displaying more than 32 colors. A simple 1 byte for 256 colors. 2. Windows 95 is a transition from MS-DOS to Windows NT. Microsoft understands backward compatibility with MS-DOS games and apps. As a 1st party developer for the Windows PC platform, Microsoft ported Doom twice. Quote:
IBM doesn't own MS-DOS. IBM has a non-exclusive license of MS-DOS known as PC-DOS. IBM doesn't own Microsoft Windows 3.x. You need a separate Microsoft Windows 3.x license for OS/2's Windows 3.x compatibility. Quote:
"Less than 1 day job Akiko C2P" didn't even make to AGA baseline. Quote:
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From Raymond Chen of Microsoft Quote:
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Where's the optimized blitter C2P for AGA install base majority? Have you realized why Commodore thinking about "A1200 on a chip"? Does Reshoot Proxima 3 run on AmigaOS 4.1 FE without UAE? Hint: it doesn't run. Does Reshoot Proxima 3 run on AmigaOS 3.1 on Draco? Hint: it doesn't run. Does Elf Mania run on AmigaOS 4.1 FE without UAE? Hint: it doesn't run. Does Elf Mania run on AmigaOS 3.1 on Draco? Hint: it doesn't run. Commodore tried to be a Mac, but the Amiga is NOT a Mac. Every Amiga NG initiative thinks Amiga is like Mac and they failed! You're in lala land to think that the Amiga's core revenue markets are in non-games. Again, Commodore is a master of none. Last edited by hammer; 23 May 2024 at 10:16. |
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23 May 2024, 06:27 | #4679 |
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23 May 2024, 07:20 | #4680 | |
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Commodore tried to be "IBM", hence Commodore Business Mmachines, but Commodore's core revenue streams are from C64 and A500. Commodore's PC business is mostly driven by Commodore West Germany's self-interest. Commodore delivered ATI's 1st big OEM contract. The problem is Commodore West Germany's A2000 (1987) didn't have a stable high-resolution mode for business use cases and the A2000 wasn't mass-produced like the A500. By defeating Amiga Ranger in 1987, it killed Amiga's stable high resolution for business use cases near Windows 2.0's Dec 1987 introduction. For the larger DTP and GUI professional office markets, A2000 was hobbled from the beginning. A2024 wasn't a mass-produced monitor and crap refresh rates. Apple Macintosh delivered stable high resolution for DTP, WYSIWYG word processing like MS Word, and GUI spreadsheets like MS Excel for the masses. These are larger markets compared to the Video Toaster niche market. MS gained experience from the MacOS and ported Mac's MS Excel and MS Word 2.x to Windows 2.x. Mac port Excel 2.1 for Windows 2.0 was released in 1988. Mac port Word 2.0 for Windows 2.0 was released in 1989. This sets the groundwork for the 1990's Windows 3.0 tsunamis. ECS's 1990 release was too late when PC's Windows 2.x had MS Excel and MS Word Mac ports with PC's VGA in the late 1980s. MS Word 2.0 Mac port for Windows 2.x knocked out Word Prefect for MS-DOS. Amiga's Word Prefect 4.x and 5.x ports are based on the MS-DOS version instead of the GUI Mac version. Microsoft's growing dominance in the PC office market diminished IBM's OS/2 chances. Commodore's "soft drink CEO" lacks craftsmanship. VGA monitor is based on IBM's earlier PGA monitor. From Commodore Germany's POV for my 1992-1993 price range, buy a Commodore PC, not the Amiga. Apple didn't have PC loyalists like Commodore West Germany (which later transferred into Escom). Apple is loyal to its in-house platforms. Last edited by hammer; 23 May 2024 at 07:52. |
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