Atari Falcon recap

[eXeler0]

Howdy,
Any Falcon owners around here? What is the situation with capacitors on the Falcon. Are they the same shit quality as Commodore used in that time period or did Atari pick higher quality caps.
I.e. Is Falcon known for leaking caps?
Also, I assume that whoever can recap a 1200 can recap a Falcon or does it have any nasty surprises, caps-wise?

[TjLaZer]

No, they are not a mandatory recap like the SMD caps in A600/1200/4000/CD32. But the PSU might need a recap if they start to bulge.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Howdy,
Any Falcon owners around here? What is the situation with capacitors on the Falcon. Are they the same shit quality as Commodore used in that time period or did Atari pick higher quality caps.
I.e. Is Falcon known for leaking caps?
Also, I assume that whoever can recap a 1200 can recap a Falcon or does it have any nasty surprises, caps-wise?

I own one. Atari used underated capacitors on their machines (and bad quality ones!). Those depending on their place and role leak or dry.

Falcons are known to have leaking capacitors. In mine, 90% of the capacitors just leaked in the PSU + out of specs, and those on the motherboard were out of specs when i tested them.

And today, the Falcon is like the ST/STE or other models series : the caps are over 30 years old now, which is way out of the lifespan ensured by their manufacturers. Those need to be serviced.

The reason is simple : Atari had no money when they "made" the Falcon. So they were to the "costs'n'cuts" road.

So yeah replacing those ensure the falcon to be "most" stable possible.

It's easier to recap a Falcon, because Atari only used radial and axial caps, not SMD. The only trick part is the Dallas chip. You need to remove it and put a replacement that allows to put or remove the battery. The disoldering can be tricky if you're not used to caps removal. you need then to protect the new module from the metal shielding behind the keyboard (i put kapton tape to isolate on mine).

The last point to check is if the Falcon has or not the 'Clock Patch'. This one helps to remove any possible corruption due to the SDMA. Some Falcon have it already, some others needs to have it.

The falcon tends otherwise to corrupt the files silently, something you don't want to happen. There is another bug to fix (the TOS v4.04 craps the big files over 20mb, a buffer value has to be changed in HDDriver from '100' to '300' to fix this native bug).

Falcons are in the end mostly prototype machines (regarding Atari own serial decoding method).

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by TjLaZer

No, they are not a mandatory recap like the SMD caps in A600/1200/4000/CD32. But the PSU might need a recap if they start to bulge.

It is mandatory. the caps on this machine are over 30 years now.

[alexh]

Far more likely to break the computer trying to replace caps with no experience of soldering than using it with out of spec 30 yo caps.

I'm don't buy into the "lets recap everything" (and I'm an electronics engineer with 30 yrs experience). If they are known to leak, sure, electrolyte leaks are 2nd only to battery leaks for destroying motherboards. If they are not known to leak, wait until it doesn't work or becomes unreliable. And get a professional to do the recap. Don't try it yourself unless you build up to it by practicing for a long time on something less valuable.

That said servicing the PSU is a requirement for Falcon030 because two custom chips which are now unobtanium are extremely sensitive to power fluctuations so if you don't want to kill your Falcon replace / service the PSU.

[HomeLate]

I worked on three Falcon's so far and never encountered any leaking caps. Sure, caps age and you could recap it. You never know the conditions it was used in.
The Falcon has a rather thick PCB with some caps in large ground planes. It is harder to remove these and you could damage the PCB or via's when using an inadequate desolder station. I'm using a $800 Hakko desoldering station and even that has trouble desoldering THT components soldered in large ground planes.
I DO NOT recommend doing this yourself if you have no or limited experience. This is a Falcon, not very common and very expensive!

However, I do recommend servicing the PSU. Exxos UK sells excellent service kits for Atari PSU's and I use these in all my Atari's.

For fellow Amigans: I also collect Amiga's :-)

I usually find bad axials in Sinclairs, near the ULA. These tend to leak or dry out.

[Snoopy1234]

I own a Falcon that had been totally re-capped when it was purchased. so it's ok. I did my own re-cap of an STE PSU which worked well after correcting the largest new cap for a correct height cap. The shield and facia wouldn't close because of it.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by alexh

Far more likely to break the computer trying to replace caps with no experience of soldering than using it with out of spec 30 yo caps.

That's the usual thing Alex. All i said and recapping a Falcon is not for a newbie user or an user with no experience in soldering.

Using 30yo caps can lead the computer to go dead or broken there's enough cases out there of "i pulled out my ST/Falcon of the cupboard after 20 years of sleep, and oh no, it went broke after 1 day of use".

One of my friend is doing repairs of computers, and he has already fixed 3 Falcon that went broke that way.

I'm don't buy into the "lets recap everything" (and I'm an electronics engineer with 30 yrs experience). If they are known to leak, sure, electrolyte leaks are 2nd only to battery leaks for destroying motherboards.

Even good quality caps are going out of spec after 30yo. Most of them were made and built to last 20yo at _Best_.

30yo caps going and running are military grade, and to my knowledge, they were (and still are) so expensive that no computer manufacturer used them.

This bring also the myth of "we don't replace, because it doesn't need to, this hardware is eternal". But nothing is eternal.

And since a Falcon cost 1500-2500 euros, you'd better not take the bet.

If they are not known to leak, wait until it doesn't work or becomes unreliable. And get a professional to do the recap. Don't try it yourself unless you build up to it by practicing for a long time on something less valuable.

If you wait until it doesn't work or unreliable, that's already too late.
Always, or at least be sure to have the knowledge to perform the recap, with the right tools, station, and soldering products.

That said servicing the PSU is a requirement for Falcon030 because two custom chips which are now unobtanium are extremely sensitive to power fluctuations so if you don't want to kill your Falcon replace / service the PSU.

Yes. Way too expensive to use as it is. better safe than nothing.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Snoopy1234

I own a Falcon that had been totally re-capped when it was purchased. so it's ok. I did my own re-cap of an STE PSU which worked well after correcting the largest new cap for a correct height cap. The shield and facia wouldn't close because of it.

Good point, it surely cost you more, but at least you're safe when using this machine.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by HomeLate

I worked on three Falcon's so far and never encountered any leaking caps. Sure, caps age and you could recap it. You never know the conditions it was used in.

So far, mine has 90% of them leaking from under via the negative pole (with time, those shit caps Atari used are experiencing waterproofing problem, which is leading to the leaking of the internal electrolyte.
For the remaining, all those i replaced where giving out of specs reading.
I know at a least one case where the falcon (US model) PSU had a huge leak with electrolyte that flooded the PSU PCB surface, and a friend of mine did the recapping on 3 Falcons, each of them had their caps giving out of specs ratings (+leak for some and dry on other).

The Falcon has a rather thick PCB with some caps in large ground planes.

Of course, the falcon use a 6 layer PCB for the motherboard, you bet it's tricky to remove them.

It is harder to remove these and you could damage the PCB or via's when using an inadequate desolder station. I'm using a $800 Hakko desoldering station and even that has trouble desoldering THT components soldered in large ground planes.

Lot of flux + copper braid. That's the easier way around. My Thermoregulated station (350 euros) is perfectly doing the job.

I DO NOT recommend doing this yourself if you have no or limited experience. This is a Falcon, not very common and very expensive!

100% true. People with no experience should ask someone who is used to soldering jobs on retro computers and consoles.

However, I do recommend servicing the PSU. Exxos UK sells excellent service kits for Atari PSU's and I use these in all my Atari's.

Yes, that's also the ones i used for my machines

I usually find bad axials in Sinclairs, near the ULA. These tend to leak or dry out.

Yeah, it never stopped me from recapping my Spectrum +2b (Amstrad model).

[HomeLate]

You should check the capacitor near the RF modulator. In some cases this is mounted wrong and causing problems with a newly placed capacitor.
Mine doesn't have that problem but there are some cases from other people where it was incorrectly mounted

[alexh]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

Using 30yo caps can lead the computer to go dead or broken there's enough cases out there of "i pulled out my ST/Falcon of the cupboard after 20 years of sleep, and oh no, it went broke after 1 day of use"

But I suspect that is more likely to be the PSU going out of spec. Than old capacitors (that don't leak).

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

One of my friend is doing repairs of computers, and he has already fixed 3 Falcon that went broke that way.

If he was able to fix them (without having to replace the custom chips or fix the motherboard) then surely that was the right time to replace the capacitors then?

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

If you wait until it doesn't work or unreliable, that's already too late.

Eh? You just said your friend fixed 3 of them after they broke! :-)

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

better safe than nothing.

Scare tactics plain and simple.

Recapping for the sake of recapping opens up a lot of problems to the average user.

Who do you send it to? (Lots of people sent their Falcon030's and STBook's to a certain person in Scotland, who had previously had a good track record and they were never seen again.)

If you have to post it two ways how do you insure it? (I can tell you no normal courier in the UK will pay-out insurance claims on a £2000+ classic computer)

How do you package it so that the courier doesn't destroy it?

Do you send just the motherboard so as to not risk the plastics?

What antistatic measures do you need to take when getting it in/out of the case?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by HomeLate

You should check the capacitor near the RF modulator. In some cases this is mounted wrong and causing problems with a newly placed capacitor.
Mine doesn't have that problem but there are some cases from other people where it was incorrectly mounted

Yeah, i read about this. However, there was no RF in France. so no RF modulator for us

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by alexh

But I suspect that is more likely to be the PSU going out of spec. Than old capacitors (that don't leak).

The PSU gets out of specs because the caps are out of specs.

On my own Falcon PSU, i had to clean up the leak that was under the 400v capacitor (primary side), and under the others (secondary side).
I kept pictures if you want to see them

If he was able to fix them (without having to replace the custom chips or fix the motherboard) then surely that was the right time to replace the capacitors then?

After 30 years, it's more than time to replace them. It's already 10 years late. Those computers, like the Amiga or ST/Falcon were equipped with components made to last their commercial life span (around 10 years).

Eh? You just said your friend fixed 3 of them after they broke! :-)

Yes, because i told the guys to see with him for maintenance/servicing. And he got sent their Falcons, and did all was recommended and needed.

Scare tactics plain and simple.

Not at all. It's simply following the manufacturers recommandations.
When caps are made to last 10 years, you replace them after 10 years, 20 years after 20 years, etc.

It's the same with your car, when the garage you go to do the maintenance say "this component has to be changed", because it's the end of its life, you do it, you don't wait the car crash on the motorway with your wife and kid(s) to do what's needed.

For a retro computer, there's no life threatened, however if you paid it 2000 euros, you certainly don't want some shit to happen because "it scares the bejesus out of you"

You do or you make do what's needed to continue an optimal use.

Recapping for the sake of recapping opens up a lot of problems to the average user.

This is only true if the user has no soldering skills or no knowledge regarding the maintenance. After 30 yo, a retro computer/console has to be serviced.

Who do you send it to? (Lots of people sent their Falcon030's and STBook's to a certain person in Scotland, who had previously had a good track record and they were never seen again.)

We have 2 or 3 guys in France that are used to service retro computers (or consoles).

The guy is a friend of mine, his name is Jérémie Retroredrum. He has a twitch channel, where he broadcast the repair or servicing on the machines people sent him. I saw him doing :

-Neogeo
-Amiga
-SNES
-Falcon
-Megadrive
-C64
-Atari Falcon
-others electronic devices not named here.

He is well equipped and he is doing a great job, live on twitch.

He is a well trusted person.

If you have to post it two ways how do you insure it? (I can tell you no normal courier in the UK will pay-out insurance claims on a £2000+ classic computer)
How do you package it so that the courier doesn't destroy it?

Do you send just the motherboard so as to not risk the plastics?

You need to use 2 boxes reinforced, and the whole computer rolled into a shock absorbing elements. That's the only way for such fragile computers.

he always got the Falcon to service with the plastic casing on. the only thing to respect is the packaging. that's the price to pay to not get it smashed during transport.

What antistatic measures do you need to take when getting it in/out of the case?

I use (and he does also) an antistatic bracelet, the most common thing used by electronicians/repairers.

[TjLaZer]

My non SMD capacitor Amiga and Atari computers are doing just fine. (Even my Falcon030 and TT030) If they aren’t broke I won’t bother. They don’t leak and damage traces like SMD caps do.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by TjLaZer

My non SMD capacitor Amiga and Atari computers are doing just fine. (Even my Falcon030 and TT030) If they aren’t broke I won’t bother. They don’t leak and damage traces like SMD caps do.

On Amiga 500, the very good shoei capacitors used by commodore are more often drying than leaking (seen 1 time).

the Wang's Cap shitty capacitors Atari used not only have bad regulation, but they are also prone to drying (the big one on the motherboard), and others (the most sollicitated in the whole "circuit") are prone to leak, because they were undercalibrated (the values used are under what was needed, Atari did that to spare on the price).

Caps after so many years are broke, they're not doing their job simply because they were never made to be used after so many years. I would never trust ratings on shitty capacitors 30yo.

That's the same with your car. When the oil is black your replace it, you don't wait for your engine to broke. It's the same with capacitors. They are to computers or console what the oil, brakes and tyres are to cars.