Vampire discourse, keep it civil (was: Vampire 1200 V2 waiting times)

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by grond

What's there to not like about it?

Seriously? I'm not a dev, but maintaining two codepaths sounds harder than maintaining one, and it's not like Amiga is a booming ecosystem with installed userbase counting in millions. Not saying it can't be done, it's just it's quite easy not to like it. But, not saying this as an anti Vamp argument either, it's just how it is.


Overall, I doubt very much there will be any must have original games appearing for any of the accelerated solutions anytime soon. Writing stuff for standard A500/1200 is no mean feat already, nevermind targeting the complexity expected on the higher hardware levels.

[jbenam]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

I do not understand why people are so nervous about it. Software sells hardware, nothing new. I remember people asking why buying vampire when there is no software that uses the extended hardware. Now the apollo team is doing the right thing and people are anxious about further splitting the community. I see it as a logical decision. It is also logical to use the pure processing power of PiStorm to create games and applications that are impossible on Vampire. We need more competition not less. I think that as progress...

I think people would be less concerned if the Apollo Team wasn't pricing their products so high. Nobody is losing their cool when talking about the PiStorm, because it's quite accessible to any Amiga user thanks to its low price. PiStorm becomes the new standard? Oh well, it's around 100EUR, it's pretty much impulse purchase pricing for our community.

The Firebird/Icedrake/whatever prices? Not so quite.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by jbenam

I think people would be less concerned if the Apollo Team wasn't pricing their products so high. Nobody is losing their cool when talking about the PiStorm, because it's quite accessible to any Amiga user thanks to its low price. PiStorm becomes the new standard? Oh well, it's around 100EUR, it's pretty much impulse purchase pricing for our community.

The Firebird/Icedrake/whatever prices? Not so quite.

when the prices are too high people will not buy it

I returned about 10 years ago (long time already...) and I think the situation improved over the years. There are choices for everyone now.

Yes Vampire is not cheap. If there are exclusive software for it you will not be able to run it elsewhere. But developers even on our platform are interested to make some money with it. I do not think that outside apollo team many developers will be interested to make "vampire only" games because it limits potential buyers. What I could imagine that games detect the hardware and offer more effects when running on vampire or (the same) on PiStorm. Of course the apollo team might indeed develop exclusive games that really need vampire to run. But I would not see a problem where no is right now.

[Promilus]

I remember people asking why buying vampire when there is no software that uses the extended hardware

Well the answer is quite simple. AMMX? Nah. SAGA? Well maybe... fastest* 68k with rtg@hdmi, fast ide, tons of RAM in one compact solution? Yeah. Well let's just see how many A500 or A600 accelerators are there with decent 68k AND RTG AND Fast IDE ... well ... hands up guys, I'm waiting. Yeah. Exactly. For quite some time RTG was domain of either A2k/3k/4k through Zorro II/III slots or A1200/3/4k with PCI bridge. Right? Right. For quite some time those "small amiga" users were limited to 4-16 color workbench and low res. Right? Right. Now at some point they could buys turbo card which also offered HDMI out and RTG modes. That alone was worth it. And there was also promise of (S)AGA in distant future. The second best option for A500 users to get both fast CPU and RTG and mass storage was - also very expensive - Warp 560. Nowadays you can get all that with Raspberry Pi3. As long as you manage to obtain one. And get PiStorm adapter. If I had to chose between those by design elegance I'd say Apollo cards are more elegant (they can run native 68k interface at full speed and you don't have to sacrifice so much compatibility for speed). Warp might have been really nice option but they over-complicated design with H7 ARM and ESP32. Also with Artix7 100k LE or Zynq7020 (should they go ahead with that one for embedded ARM which could've run ARM code concurrently to 68k) it would be fairly possible to make 060 obsolete and go ahead with either their own softcore or Xilinx version of AC68080 licensed from Gunnar. And with that I'd say there would be a nice competition and things like AMMX might become de facto standard.

[Vamplover]

What the fans say.

What Commodore should have done, I was blown way - David Pleasance

Vampire V4 got it right, Amiga spiritual successor - Dave Hanie

I approve, better than I thought it could be - Medi Ali

Wish this was around when I ran Microsoft, we could have borrowed some ideas - Bill Gates

Nice to see Amiga beating Windows again - Woz

I’ll take a V4 to space with me so I don’t get bored - Jeff Bezos

It should be way way thinner, but I still love it - Johnny Ive

This will take a bite out of the competition - Dracula

I thought you were going to support me - 3 1/2 Floppy Disk

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by Vamplover

The ATI Radators or nVideodia numbered cards used in seX5000 are made by man’s and woman’s. The SAGA and Arnie in Vampire are bestowed on the earth by the God Apollo and he hand baked a Team! Like Mosses picked for the boat before flood. Not all are worthy! Who do you trust, mice and men or Gods? Evens the AROS cat gets lost without the mighty god ApolloOS giving hers directions. AMXXX very very important too. It stop the crafty emulators from getting SAGA or Arnie or Maggie working on thems. Just helping sales so more Vamp sold to Amiga old skool boys. So u will never sees Vampire advanced custom logic chips running in countries of UAE or MAME so Apollo made in the shade. Very goods for sales. AAA Custom chips all the way and fess up 700 Euro if you expect the pleasure in privacy of own home. Never forget the VAT.

I see that you ignore what users write, so I will avoid writing on this post

[dreadnought]

Hey, @Vamplover, you should get a book deal or some such (but no2utube, plz). I'd love to see your inimitable style applied to just about anything, eg global warming, rise of the yupsters, or Galileo's persecution.

[Cego]

Originally Posted by Promilus

@Cego
No it is not. App made for RTG and fast CPU will work with PiStorm, most likely will work on MOS and AOS4 as well with 68k emulator embedded in the system.

68k emulation on MorphOS/OS4 and PiStorm is a very small percentage of the Amiga hardware base.
This is hardly an argument that is favoring your argument about a widely spread and established standard regarding RTG/060 we should care about, so the community won't split. The software, which comes to question here, won't run on 95% of the remaining Amiga hardware. And btw, there are more active Vampire users than all those stated platforms (PiStorm, OS4, MorphOS) combined.
And please tell me, who is using high end 68k RTG applications on MorphOS or OS4? Have a look into the Aminet. Every program uploaded, that is a bit more demanding, has an OS4, MorphOS, AROS and 68k upload. You are cherry-picking some weird arguments, desperately trying to dismiss anything that could justify the existence of 68080 and AMMX.

App developed in asm and with directly talking to SAGA registers won't work on any other platform whatsoever.

Again: This is the case for any application written for CPUs above 68000.
68020 apps won't run on 68k. 040 apps won't run on 030. 060 apps won't run on 040. PPC won't run on 680x0. FPU stuff won't run on non-FPU CPUs. Altivec stuff won't run on G3. AGA stuff won't run on OCS, RTG won't run on chipset etc.

And writing directly to the hardware (new hardware) is also goal of Apollo Team. At the time PS1 was released there wasn't a real need for hardware sprites anyway. And you can have ~4000 sprites on PS1 at the same time. The last console using hardware sprites was probably Sega Saturn.

Who speaks about Sprites? Kinda confusing what you're writing. What has Spritehardware to do with my point stated that AAA(+) could've been what the PS1 offered?

There's no boundaries to push any further. It's either what was 30 years ago (ECS, AGA) and a made-up architecture you can define yourself.

Your point exactly is? We don't need no further and faster amiga hardware? Why? Why do you have problem with it that other Amigans don't think like you? Why are you so ignorant and intolerant? Nobody has a problem with your desire to solely use OCS and low-end stuff. Why can't you accept and acknowledge that other people might think differently?

Is it FPGA RTG and AGA-inspired logic or part of the ARM SoC with RTG driver. Pick your poison. One might consider implementing AMMX as pushing the boundaries. Other might think that since it requires s/w rewrite in the first place you might as well introduce coprocessor made of different architecture (and much more powerful, less expensive too). What's wrong with that?

Why does it require software rewrite? Everything up until then will still work with 68080 and even better as it's supporting every and each Motorola 680x0 instruction. The CPU is the most compatible 68k CPU of them all.
And nothings wrong with introducing a coprocessor made of a different architecture. Its you who has a problem with Apollo 68080. You should ask yourself the question, not me. I am open for everything.

Where in that phrase did you find any demand? I just pointed out all h/w solutions are waste of resources should there be no new software for it. ZZ9000 is a troubled product. It does allow one to use secondary ARM core but I find no 3rd party applications on it regardless of release of SDK and documentation. That's an area which needs most of the improvement. You disagree?

You stated that new software is what's needed. But you seem to have a hard time to understand that new software requires faster hardware.

New software doesn't necessarily means Vulkan RT ... I'd be pretty happy with OCS version of cRPG like Planescape Torment. Or improved version of Dune 2 (like PC mod Dune Legacy). On the other hand I see no reason why amiga should forever be bound by what 68k and chipset can and cannot do. Newer chipsets were designed to work with any given CPU architecture and be compatible by software only (so through system libraries and API). Depending on what we want to accomplish there is usually more than 1 way to achieve that goal.

So what's you problem with Apollo then, if you're happy with OCS stuff? Matter of fact, there are dozens new games for OCS coming out. And I don't see the 68080 being an obstacle in that regard. I still dont get why you're complaining.
If you want OCS then be happy with your stock A500 and leave other amigans alone, who are happy with their highend Apollo stuff.

As I have already explained 060 was produced by several manufacturers (and even nowadays there are at least 2) when there's only one source of AC68080 with SAGA.

It doesn't matter how many manufacturers there has been. 68060 is dead and not produced anymore and impossible to find for a reasonable price. 68080 is available, 2nd hand and new.

Also 060 was real motorola processor, anyone could buy it and use with in his solution. That's how Warp1260 was created. AC68080 isn't motorola solution.

Well Freescale bought the 68060. What about that? The name doesn't matter. The concept of the CPU and how it operates is the important factor. AMD is also building x86 CPUs, so what? Just because Intel invented them doesn't mean that AMD CPUs are in any way inferior or less justified.
The 68080 is the most compatible 680x0 CPU as it implements ALL instructions. On 68060 you had to emulate certain things on OS level or else the Amiga would crash. 68ec060 was fine though. Speaking of splitting up the community btw,...

[Cego]

Originally Posted by jbenam

News flash: Amiga is dead and it has been dead for the last ~30 years. We are all playing with old stuff, so yes, we can keep using old stuff and the world won't end

Of course the world won't end. But explain that to people who think a new CPU development will split up the community...
I am totally fine with every development and use-case of the Amiga.

I would honestly stick with what was available back then with a modern twist to replace old, now-too-expensive hardware. A cheap emulated 060 + RTG for 150€? Why, yes, thank you! This is what made me excited for the very first Vampire back then.

Thats ok. Just use your PC with WinUAE or a Raspberry Pi then. Thats the cheapest solution for you. Question is, are you also fine with people wanting to use expensive and exclusive hardware that is pushing the limits of the original machines further without emulation?

I understand the fun in porting a very demanding engine and/or game to under-powered (or not native) hardware. It's a challenge that pushes the programmer to pull every trick in the book to make the impossible possible.

Thats also possible with Apollo 68080.

But when you throw brute force at the problem (with the 68080 and/or a PiStorm), then you can just "lazily" port stuff and the challenge is gone.

You just stated that you're super happy with emulation solution for a cheap price. So basically you're favoring exactly that kind of hardware that would appeal to such kind of lazy programming. And no, the 68080 is not that powerful, where you can throw anything at it and it'll just work. You still have to optimize and use clever coding like AMMX.
The 68080 is actually the best way to execute 68060 Demos and other highend applications as the chipram access operates at 7MB/s making Demos run so much smoother. Almost all newer AGA/060 Demo releases require an overclocked 060. At least 66MHz and in some cases even 80MHz. 68080 is not brute force, but the last resort to get those demos and apps working in an acceptable speed without the risk of damaging your hardware by overclocking. Take Netsurf for example or Quake. Its a shitshow on the 68060.
The need for OC is actually one kind of brute force too to get software working. Its just the other way round, which is also problematic.

[Cego]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Ah, so Setpatch now recognises the "68080" now, and loads 68080.library? I take it there's a place for any customer to download the 68080.library file that the Vampire team developed and released? Does it still need to patch Kickstart to enable the onboard fast RAM, or have they finally decided to use the long-established Autoconfig system?

You don't need no 68080.library as the CPU speaks every instruction of the whole 68k line. AmigaOS won't crash contrary to the 68060 and 68040.
Do you remember the days when the 68060 was released? Almost nothing worked on the Amiga. WHDLoad took decades to enable all the games for 68060 users. The 68080 is so much more compatible.
Regarding kickstart and autoconfig I'm totally with you. They should've put a ROM on the classic Vampire accelerators for a clean integration into the system. But we also had this on the BlizzardPPC cards and the powerpc.library, which had to be removed manually to get WarpOS working. There is also hardware which needs manual patching of the kickstart to get IDE drivers going or AddMem kinda stuff.
Its just as it is. The Apollo solution is not that bad though and easy to handle.

[Chucky]

use a modern 060 card for the amiga and it will also run at 7MB/s and use a proper non fictionous cpu that works as intended and .. most important of all: SUPPORTED by the demoscene..

[sean_sk]

Originally Posted by Vamplover

What the fans say.

What Commodore should have done, I was blown way - David Pleasance

Vampire V4 got it right, Amiga spiritual successor - Dave Hanie

I approve, better than I thought it could be - Medi Ali

Wish this was around when I ran Microsoft, we could have borrowed some ideas - Bill Gates

Nice to see Amiga beating Windows again - Woz

I’ll take a V4 to space with me so I don’t get bored - Jeff Bezos

It should be way way thinner, but I still love it - Johnny Ive

This will take a bite out of the competition - Dracula

I thought you were going to support me - 3 1/2 Floppy Disk

Thank you!

[Pyromania]

Johnny Ives comment is insensitive. It’s the smallest and thinnest Amiga clone so far! Even smaller than any of the Macintosh’s Johnny designed in overall footprint. Johnny designs beat it on slenderness but not overall girth. I think it would take about 30 or 40 stacked Vampire V4 machines to equal the size of the Amiga X5000. That machine is a beast size wise. What site or news article did Johnny mention this?

[Promilus]

@Cego

Again: This is the case for any application written for CPUs above 68000.
68020 apps won't run on 68k. 040 apps won't run on 030. 060 apps won't run on 040. PPC won't run on 680x0. FPU stuff won't run on non-FPU CPUs. Altivec stuff won't run on G3. AGA stuff won't run on OCS, RTG won't run on chipset etc.

Again - is that hard for you to understand there are already dozens of solutions from different manufacturers which remedies lack of 020 on A500? And there's ONLY ONE with AMMX and SAGA. That's my point you stubborn individual. Let it sink already in your brain.

Who speaks about Sprites

Improved sprites is one of the features of SAGA or did you missed that one?

What has Spritehardware to do with my point stated that AAA(+) could've been what the PS1 offered

AAA specs were drawn and it clearly states it's incompatible with AA. Incompatibility itself would kill that one. And PS1 performance is largely through programmable units (vector processor and RISC processor) and not specialized chipset.

We don't need no further and faster amiga hardware?

We largely don't. That's how it is when you still want to have one leg in 80s but wish to get more modern performance as well. It ends up with ports from late 90s at most. For a really new performance we need new hardware. ENTIRELY. NEW. PLATFORM. Which just won't work out the same way PPC Amiga never did.

Why do you have problem with it that other Amigans don't think like you? Why are you so ignorant and intolerant?

I don't have a problem with that. It seems you are the only one intolerant with any opinion which differs from yours.

Nobody has a problem with your desire to solely use OCS and low-end stuff.

I never said anything about that, you are jumping to conclusions. You are doing this all time. Maybe think before typing.

Why does it require software rewrite?

Because existing software won't use AMMX unless it is rewritten. Right? Right...

You stated that new software is what's needed. But you seem to have a hard time to understand that new software requires faster hardware.

You are failing to grasp that it DOES NOT. Dread doesn't, Farmiga doesn't. And both are fresh and enjoyable. With all that powerful and expensive Apollo cards you got yourself at Pentium MMX level. Yes. Those kind of games for that platform are ported to Amiga now. And I have nothing against ports. But that's 20+ years old stuff I played my ass off 20 years ago on PC. It doesn't tempt me. New amiga stuff I never played before and I find intriguing - well it does. And neither ports nor new games will happen unless there are developers. True of false?

So what's you problem with Apollo then, if you're happy with OCS stuff?

You are again jumping to conclusions. I am happy with OCS stuff. I am happy with RTG stuff. I'm happy with 68000 stuff. I'm happy with PPC G3 stuff. I'm even happy with Vanilla Conquer on Vampire. I'm not very fond of AMMX, I'm not seeing SAGA improvements over AGA as a way to go with new apps. And with that - I see those as nearly useless features which potentially might lead to exclusive applications. Exclusive through artificial means. 060 apps require 060 because 040 is to slow to run in in the first place. It doesn't mean something using AMMX is too demanding to run on e.g. PiStorm. And that's exactly what might happen. You're just too blinded to see it.

Well Freescale bought the 68060

Freescale was just a daughter company to Motorola which motorola created to move it's processor making stuff out of the main body. You know nothing.

[grelbfarlk]

Vamplover is the herald of the Amiga and the skulliverse. I can feel the vampirism virus in my system now yes!
In answer to the previous question how many Vampire Executables are there?
I see on Aminet 83903 packages online, so that many.
How many Vampires are there installed? All of them. Every A2000, A500, A1000, CDTV, GBA-1000, Phoenix, CDTV-II and the AMY-ITX motherboards have Vampires in them.
How long has the Vampire project had a fully functional and compatible 060+ CPU and AGA chipset? Since 2012 when the Natami project was completed.
How powerful is the Vampire?
It regenerates 20 hit points per turn. It is totally modern and has a fashionable haircut and low cut shirts, not some ruffled front tuxedo top. The Maggie 3D library will be faster than an S3 Virge, which is equivalent to a Playstation 4.
The CPU has more advancements than Wintel or a Phone.
Who can replace them?
You just have to sign up to a forum and ask nicely. Not imply that something isn't working you have to bow and scrape and beg for the privilege to live forever with vampirism, and then perhaps someone will say "Just don't run that application."
Which you won't until there is a native version, which you didn't really want to run it anyway. Why don't you try another SDL port in the meantime? It's amazing what a few SDL scaler routines are worth. You can call those library improvements a whole new chip if you want! You are a vampire, you can fly!

[TCD]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

It regenerates 20 hit points per turn. It is totally modern and has a fashionable haircut and low cut shirts, not some ruffled front tuxedo top.

[Cego]

Originally Posted by Promilus

@Cego

Again - is that hard for you to understand there are already dozens of solutions from different manufacturers which remedies lack of 020 on A500? And there's ONLY ONE with AMMX and SAGA. That's my point you stubborn individual. Let it sink already in your brain.

What does it matter if there is just one or 5 manufacturers of an accelerator regarding your point about splitting up the community?
And you're mixing up stuff. The most important factor is, that 68k-68060 CPUs are not produced anymore. 68080 is the only uptodate and available 68k based CPU architecture.

Improved sprites is one of the features of SAGA or did you missed that one?

So what? I think you have a serious problem with putting things into context. Read my statement about the PS1 again and try to understand the point i made. I dont care about better Sprite hardware or not. What matters is that AAA+ could've been on the level of a PS1 if Commodore didnt mess up. Nobody here talked about technical details on how to accomplish it or how AAA+ would've exactly operated. So its quite absurd that you're talking about Spritehardware. Throwing in some dumb arguments to act like you got a point...

AAA specs were drawn and it clearly states it's incompatible with AA. Incompatibility itself would kill that one. And PS1 performance is largely through programmable units (vector processor and RISC processor) and not specialized chipset.

AAA is the result of AA released in 1992. I am talking about a chipset that could've been on the same level (performance wise) and even better with 3D support in 1992 if Commodore kept up development in the late 80s.
AAA the way that it was actually supposed to be around 1994, had to break compatibility because AGA was too outdated. The AAA(+) chipset i'm talking about is hypothetical. It could've been close to what Apollo offers today, if they kept pushing the chipset in the late 80s. And yes, Spritehardware would've still be important in 1992
READ AND UNDERSTAND!

We largely don't. That's how it is when you still want to have one leg in 80s but wish to get more modern performance as well. It ends up with ports from late 90s at most. For a really new performance we need new hardware. ENTIRELY. NEW. PLATFORM. Which just won't work out the same way PPC Amiga never did.

Thats not up to you to decide what we lack and what not. If you're cool with the existing base, then why do you care about Apollo at all? Neither should newer software that requires more power concern you, as you're totally fine with stuff running on old hardware.
If somebody decides to write software for AMMX, you really wont lose anything. What are you complaining about?

I don't have a problem with that. It seems you are the only one intolerant with any opinion which differs from yours.

Yes you have. You dont want AMMX and Apollo 68080 to exist. And thats intolerant and ignorant. Pointing out that you're talking BS is not a sign of intolerance, but lack of understanding from your side. I am totally fine with everything ranging from OCS to PiStorm/PowerPC stuff. Live and let live as i said. You're the one hating here

I never said anything about that, you are jumping to conclusions. You are doing this all time. Maybe think before typing.

As you keep insulting me its obvious that you're out of arguments. You said that you're fine with the existing hardware base which concludes that you're fine with software that is only suited for the existing base. I am on the other hand interested in new software that is not suited for the existing Amiga hardware base like more sophisticated emulators, video players, webbrowser, 3D games, etc.

Because existing software won't use AMMX unless it is rewritten. Right? Right...

Rewriting existing software to AMMX makes no sense. Either the software runs at an acceptable speed on the existing hardware or not. Rewriting software for AMMX makes only sense if AMMX power is needed. You get it?
Movie players f.e. are heavily accelerated by AMMX and opens up the possibility to watch videos in higher resolution and bitrate.
You - as somebody who's fine with old hardware - has nothing to complain here. You were not able to watch such kind of videos before and won't be able to with the release of an AMMX version of the video player.

You are failing to grasp that it DOES NOT. Dread doesn't, Farmiga doesn't. And both are fresh and enjoyable. With all that powerful and expensive Apollo cards you got yourself at Pentium MMX level. Yes. Those kind of games for that platform are ported to Amiga now. And I have nothing against ports. But that's 20+ years old stuff I played my ass off 20 years ago on PC. It doesn't tempt me. New amiga stuff I never played before and I find intriguing - well it does. And neither ports nor new games will happen unless there are developers. True of false?

And who tells you what people want to code? Does every user and coder only want OCS stuff? Of course there are software releases for OCS (i have stated that too, but you seem to miss the crucial points in this discussion), but there are power users who want to max out their hardware and software experience. Maybe you don't like it, but figures dont lie. Apollo Core is the most successful amiga hardware in the past 20 years. Numbers don't lie and easily shows that your argument is BS. People want that kind of power and new possibilities. And you should be tolerant enough to accept it and let people have their way.

You are again jumping to conclusions. I am happy with OCS stuff. I am happy with RTG stuff. I'm happy with 68000 stuff. I'm happy with PPC G3 stuff. I'm even happy with Vanilla Conquer on Vampire. I'm not very fond of AMMX, I'm not seeing SAGA improvements over AGA as a way to go with new apps. And with that - I see those as nearly useless features which potentially might lead to exclusive applications. Exclusive through artificial means.

Well, according to your logic all those variations of Amiga Hardware is splitting up the community and won't help keeping it together. That statement is false. So anything that is introducing incompatibility to Amiga is problematic in your opinion, as you have stated it with AMMX.
Your AGA programs are also incompatible with OCS. Your FPU programs also wont run on an EC030. These are all exclusive applications through artificial means (whatever that means).

060 apps require 060 because 040 is to slow to run in in the first place. It doesn't mean something using AMMX is too demanding to run on e.g. PiStorm. And that's exactly what might happen. You're just too blinded to see it.

You're comparing apples with oranges. AMMX is all about speed, just like Altivec on a G4. And justifying your point with PiStorm which is basically an emulator running an overclocked 060 at 1000MHz is not really a point against AMMX.
Thats like saying, we dont need no Altivec optimized Apps on MorphOS anymore, because QEMU is much faster with a G3 emulation.
Its ok if you're fine with emulation beeing the most powerful way to run Amiga software, but as an Amiga fan i care about the real hardware.
And you also seem to forget (probably on purpose) that Apollo development is way older than those ARM emulation solutions. So AMMX comes from a time where you had to introduce new features and instructions to a CPU, to make it a lot faster at the same clockspeed (68080 runs at 85MHz), because there was no other way.

Freescale was just a daughter company to Motorola which motorola created to move it's processor making stuff out of the main body. You know nothing.

My gosh... what matters is the CPU architecture. It could be Freescale, Motorola, Intel or your butt-hurt name on the Chip. It wont change the technolgy inside of it...

You know nothing.

Obvioulsy more than you to understand simple concept of a CPU branding
And please keep insulting me. It just shows that you're a walking pile of BS. At least i got real points made and not some butt-hurt childish arguments that make no sense.

[Promilus]

AAA is the result of AA released in 1992.

No it is not, how ignorant can you be about amiga chipset development.

AAA the way that it was actually supposed to be around 1994, had to break compatibility because AGA was too outdated

Nope. Both AA and AAA were supposed to be much sooner. AA was postponed, AAA was shelved. AAA wasn't developed as a result of AA. It was developed in 88-89 then shelved. Hence - it is register-wise compatible with ECS (mostly, not fully) but doesn't include anything from AA.

You dont want AMMX and Apollo 68080 to exist

That's one big BS. AMMX has nothing to do with AC68080 (or N68070 for that matter). I don't care about 68k compatible CPU implementation in FPGA would it be AC68080, TG68k, WF68k30, J68 or whatever. I'm not very fond of attempts to legitimize made-up expansions otherwise unavailable as standard solution. Too bad it's beyond your comprehension.

As you keep insulting me its obvious that you're out of arguments

I'm not the one who started calling ppl ignorant. Maybe you should reevaluate the way you articulate your arguments.

Movie players f.e. are heavily accelerated by AMMX and opens up the possibility to watch videos in higher resolution and bitrate

Yeah, wow. It would take only 100MHz Cortex M4F to get the same result but hey, AMMX is so great, cheers!

Rewriting existing software to AMMX makes no sense

So... dump that Riva...
And ports as well
Yeah, makes perfect sense.

You - as somebody who's fine with old hardware

V2, Icedrake and Firebird are meant for that old hardware. And V4 is just amiga compatible 3rd party hardware (which there are quite a few).

Rewriting software for AMMX makes only sense if AMMX power is needed

Yes. And since my argument was about something like "when you have to rewrite software to use AMMX you might as well rewrite it to use something like embedded ARM on Cyclone V SE used instead of E series with better results overall". So did I write truth or not? Would introduction of ARM coprocessor allow even higher bitrate of videos or not? That's the point I was making... for any speed obsessed individual.

And who tells you what people want to code?

Was the question with 2 possible choices (true/false) too hard on you? Too bad.

And justifying your point with PiStorm which is basically an emulator running an overclocked 060 at 1000MHz

Apollo card CPU is just bunch of flexible logic units with functions and connections programmed at startup. AC68080 is just a logic defined through the hardware description language. Your point exactly?

but as an Amiga fan i care about the real hardware

Despite what you might think FPGA softcore ain't all that far away from software emulation. It's just implemented in programmable hardware building blocks instead of sets of procedures. That's exactly the reason why you can fix bugs and add functionality.

And you also seem to forget (probably on purpose) that Apollo development is way older than those ARM emulation solutions

Oh not at all. I'm well aware of that. So? It only means upstart project offers already similar thing like refined vampire which has many years of development (both vampire and natami before) behind it. With obvious exception to AMMX and SAGA

what matters is the CPU architecture

So what's difference does it make if code will be executed by hard processor like 060, softcore in FPGA like AC68080 or jit emulator like emu68? You still code with the same ISA (unless of course someone mess around with his own extension to said architecture).

At least i got real points made

Yeah, right... you made my day

[LewisB]

Lets just accept that different people have different ideas how they would like the Amiga scene to progress. Neither is right or wrong.

Some talk of splitting the scene, but that has been a fact of life in the Amiga scene since the start, whether it was the introduction of a 512k ram expansion meaning some games wouldn't run without it, or the introduction of the ECS chipset, which brought some additional features that meant that software designed for it would not run on OCS machines,

No one has any more or less rights to develop what they want for the scene, hardware or software, it's just their choice.

Likewise no one has the right to tell those who develop, or those who buy such hardware or software, that they are wrong.

EVERYONE CAN MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES

Please can everyone accept that, and for those that feel they have to voice their opinion on why their preferred solution is better - please stop - it is your actions that is splitting the community more than anything else.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Cego

Yes you have. You dont want AMMX and Apollo 68080 to exist. And thats intolerant and ignorant. Pointing out that you're talking BS is not a sign of intolerance, but lack of understanding from your side. I am totally fine with everything ranging from OCS to PiStorm/PowerPC stuff. Live and let live as i said. You're the one hating here

See, this line of arguing is the problem that I have mentioned before. Criticizing these features is not an equivalent of denying their existence, and even if it was in case of some people, it's not necessarily ignorant, intolerant, or hateful. That's really stretching it into the realms of a typical web argument hyperbole.



My point being, you guys can argue till the cows come home - though, tbh, these multi-quote, half page, exchanges are rather tedious (more Vamplover plz) - and that's perfectly fine. I have no clue who is right or wrong here, regarding the tech-related squabble, probably nobody - or maybe everybody. But, people from the Vamp side tend to ascribe some higher moral virtues to their argument and this seems a tad disingenious, since a) this simply isn't so and b) it's an easy cop out.