Games supporting 2 (ie. independent) fire buttons?

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

I'd love to know the technical reasons for that difference between different titles.

Then order a kit and assemble an Open C64 adapter from that kit so that we may compare our results. I can't be of much help until you (or someone else) do (does).

Don't most games use a key for pause anyway?

My point is : If someone was making a Amiga <-> MD adapter from scratch which would support a third button, and
I was given a choice between Pause and Space bar as to how this button was to be assigned to, I would choose Space bar. If said adapter was supporting a fourth button, I'd choose Enter, a fifth, Pause. In that order. I am well aware binding the keyboard is out of the question in that context, merely speculating here.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

And since you guys mention the possibility of assigning additional buttons (to pause the game etc.), I'd like to see this done in order to assign the space bar to a button, same with the enter key (e.q. in Hybris, both the space bar and the enter key serve some purpose). If I am about to pause a game, it's because I'll be doing something else anyway, so no biggie to reach over to the keyboard to pause.

That's not that easy, because there is possibility to use normal 3rd button for Amiga.
Some games use 3rd button as pause and thanks to WHDLad Team even more games are using 3rd button to some functions. It's not bad idea to add module extend to 3rd button in Hybris.
What You are asking for is make other standard which is excluding 3-buttons standard because 3rd button is not used as button but switch to other functions of other buttons. So this is bad idea for me, first it's excluding 3-buttons standard, second it's brand new standard on Amiga.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

My point is : If someone was making a Amiga <-> MD adapter from scratch which would support a third button, and
I was given a choice between Pause and Space bar as to how this button was to be assigned to, I would choose Space bar. If said adapter was supporting a fourth button, I'd choose Enter, a fifth, Pause. In that order. I am well aware binding the keyboard is out of the question in that context, merely speculating here.

What You are describing is exactly how CD32 standard compatible joypad is able to do - you have seven buttons. So why You don't buy one CD32 standard compatible joypad? There is many games already supporting this joypad standard.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Then order a kit and assemble an Open C64 adapter from that kit so that we may compare our results. I can't be of much help until you (or someone else) do (does).

Sorry, I should have been more specific: The technical reason from the software perspective. I don't need to build the adaptor to understand the hardware side.

My point is : If someone was making a Amiga <-> MD adapter from scratch which would support a third button, and
I was given a choice between Pause and Space bar as to how this button was to be assigned to, I would choose Space bar. If said adapter was supporting a fourth button, I'd choose Enter, a fifth, Pause. In that order. I am well aware binding the keyboard is out of the question in that context, merely speculating here.

Such adaptors already exist, and are trivial to build. My MD adaptor allows the Amiga to read all 4 buttons on the standard MD pad, and in theory all 8 buttons on a 6-button MD pad (I don't have one myself to test). But I don't understand the relationship of such an adaptor to keyboard controls on an Amiga game; the two are entirely independent and non-mutual in both hardware and software terms.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

But I don't understand the relationship of such an adaptor to keyboard controls on an Amiga game; the two are entirely independent and non-mutual in both hardware and software terms.

I know, that was simply wishful thinking from me.

The technical reason from the software perspective. I don't need to build the adaptor to understand the hardware side.

Considering how it works with some games and not with others, debugging the open adapter requires both hardware and software skills that I don't possess, but also testing it in situ (unless someone codes a small test program for that purpose).
I think for an Amiga adapter to conquer the heart of MD joypad users, optionally mimicking up for jump is a must have. If there was one, just one feature of the open adapter to retain before entering the market (which is not what you plan to do, unless I am mistaken), that would be it. XP8 supports the CD32 pad natively apparently, but no other game from that list does, which brings me to wonder what purpose would serve supporting two additional buttons in a non WHDLoad context.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I think for an Amiga adapter to conquer the heart of MD joypad users, optionally mimicking up for jump is a must have. If there was one, just one feature of the open adapter to retain before entering the market (which is not what you plan to do, unless I am mistaken), that would be it.

Indeed, I definitely see the merit in having up remapped to a button, and such an adaptor is trivial to build. I just haven't done it because I don't play thouse kinds of games (and don't like the MD pad anyway). You're correct, it's not something I plan to build and/or sell.

XP8 supports the CD32 pad natively apparently, but no other game from that list does, which brings me to wonder what purpose would serve supporting two additional buttons in a non WHDLoad context.

True. WHDLoad is a very popular way of people playing games, though I don't really see the need for it when there are so many games already patched for CD32 controls.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

XP8 supports the CD32 pad natively apparently, but no other game from that list does

Excuse me... what?

[SquawkBox]

I meant... supports the additional buttons from the CD32 joypad.
XP8 manual mentions the button configuration from the CD32 joypad. I don't think any other game from the list explicitly mention the colored buttons from that pad (red, green, blue, yellow). Of course, I wasn't implying CD32 joypad would not work with any of these games, just that it would be limited to two buttons at most.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I meant... supports the additional buttons from the CD32 joypad.
XP8 manual mentions the button configuration from the CD32 joypad. I don't think any other game from the list explicitly mention the colored buttons from that pad (red, green, blue, yellow). Of course, I wasn't implying CD32 joypad would not work with any of these games, just that it would be limited to two buttons at most.

Again... what?
You are completely wrong. You didn't check it at all, did You?
First game on list which have originally CD32 joypad support is Alien Breed Tower Assault. Please see this manual page 5. Mind that it's one of first games on list. There is much more games which have mentioned CD32 control in manual.

Also please look on my list where is more control descriptions. I begin to think that You didn't see that list at all.

[SquawkBox]

I thought it would be a good idea to check the corresponding manual for confirmation. So what I do is check the manual, then back to scrutinizing the list, grabbing a few interesting bits without writing down those bits, relying on my memory which sometimes fails me. Think Rain Man state of mind after he's been seduced by Susanna .

All right, what about : XP8 is one of the few games from the list that fully support the CD32 joypad presumably, better ? But anyway, if CD32 original joypad was such a breeze to use, I guess we would all be using one instead of trying to find alternatives. Did you try to play all of these CD32 joypad enabled games with a CD32 joypad to confirm such support ? Tell us a little about your db9 gear, will you .

[Solo Kazuki]

I have custom made PSX-like joypad with CD32 standard compatibility and mouse emulation, KTRL CD32+, RetroRadionics ArcadeR, standard 1-button joystick which i bought with C64G last year and since few days i have 3-buttons supporting custom made joypad about which is mentioned on EAB.

For rest I haven't time for quarrels with someone who even didn't read neither this topic nor any of mentioned lists, what is more and more obvious to me with Your every next reply.
Edit: And Yes, I've played at least once on every game on this list with first mentioned controller which I have over 20 years (!). And since You didn't read this thread, some games on this list (and even more on mine) are found by myself.

For joystick preferences please read some topics and polls about this before saying something which haven't any common sense. Mind that there are still people who don't even know that Amiga can handle more than one button...

[SquawkBox]

The reason I bought the Open C64 adapter is because I've read some post on EAB about it, it's not a decision that comes out of nowhere. Contrary to what you seem to take for granted, I am not biased towards Mega Drive joypads, the author of said adapter is, I just jumped on the bandwagon. In fact, the third party MD pad I bought feels a bit flimsy in hands, so I might consider buying an original MD pad. I also bought a Quickshot Maverick III which is a fine stick but still doesn't allow me to solve 2nd button issues with said adapter. I don't have unlimited budget and no modding skills which narrows my options considerably (I just bought another Sega stick which won't put my Paula at risk presumably, more on that later). All right I could learn to solder, but I have other priorities.

A thread with poll was created not long ago to discuss joypad preferences, It's all right for me to discuss that topic or to refrain from doing so, all the same to me. Including you, up till now, four people have evoked their db9 gear, it's not like "your thread" have derailed into a big compendium of joystick recommendations, donne-moi un break .

Thing is, I recommended said adapter a couple of times already, so I think it's responsible attitude to let peeps know about its shortcomings. Having said that, I don't feel I overemphasized the use of MD pads over more conventional pads or joysticks. If (and that's a big if) all you've got to play games on your miggy is one of these adapters and a MD pad, then by all means, go ahead and plug the stuff, having in mind there's room for improvement in terms of second button support (or maybe you got lucky and obtained the revised kit with the additional resistor). On the other hand, if you have soldering skills and a lot of time to read hundreds and hundreds of posts of the subject, be a hip kid and get the proper gear, mod it and enjoy the 2nd (and 3rd, and 4th...) button goodness all the way through.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

in Hybris, both the space bar and the enter key serve some purpose

Actually I found lastly that Hybris have 3 buttons support (at least in WHDLoad version). More info would be in my next update of list on PPA (maybe even later today).

[SquawkBox]

Nice, I think, ultimately, you (or SunChild) could fill the blanks concerning the non WHDLoad entries. Not everything is totally obvious as per 2nd button use e.q. Super Skidmarks 2nd button -> to use car's horn etc. As it is, lists omissions feel a bit like, you don't use WHDLoad ? then RTFM .

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Nice, I think, ultimately, you (or SunChild) could fill the blanks concerning the non WHDLoad entries. Not everything is totally obvious as per 2nd button use e.q. Super Skidmarks 2nd button -> to use car's horn etc. As it is, lists omissions feel a bit like, you don't use WHDLoad ? then RTFM .

No, I just have some life except this list
If You have such informations (or anybody else, everyone is welcomed) like from Super Skidmarks, which is not my favourite racing game (so i didn't checked it yet), please write it, here or on PPA (You can use english). Please also check my list on PPA if it's not already described, because there is added more informations regarding this case. I'm trying to check this when time would allow this, but i'm alone with this yet.


I'll add Super Skidmarks note in next update. I just updated list yesterday so it's pity that You didn't write it then.

Edit: I have some days free from work just before Christmas, so maybe some infos would be added.

[SquawkBox]

I have a proper joystick to test 2nd button support (Sega's SJ-3000), so from now on, you can count me in the 2 independent button joystick owners crowd .
XP8 (non AGA version) case is a bit strange, when I hit 2nd fire button in joypad mode, ship fires continuously, as if I was hitting 1st button fire.
As per Deluxe Galaga, I think you could mention version revision. The version I use (non AGA, 2.5 version) doesn't seem to make any use of 2nd button fire. JOTD's slave fixes joypad controls for AGA version, but maybe we can assume ECS version 2nd button fire support from original (which is supposed to allow us to toggle between weapons) is broken too.

[Solo Kazuki]

You can also get this joypad for full 3 buttons support with additional not only up but also down on buttons.

[SquawkBox]

I'll give it a though, but no autofire on a modern joypad is a minus for me, also that :

its not recommeded to press upper and lower buttons at same time

doesn't sound too good (unless masteries added a resistor on most recent batches).
I think we need "Games supporting 3 fire buttons" thread to compliment this one .

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

doesn't sound too good (unless masteries added a resistor on most recent batches).
I think we need "Games supporting 3 fire buttons" thread to compliment this one .

It's not problem in my version.

[SquawkBox]

Fine, then we can only hope he manages to implement autofire in a way or another. It is true the price of said pad is fair, I'll give you that.

I see that Deluxe Galaga is still mentioned in your list. Please check this link :
https://web.archive.org/web/20201026...cs/default.htm
It's the online docs (link broken that was once featured on late author web site). As you can see, no mention of a 2nd fire button.

As per XP8, can you confirm that CD32 pad is supported natively ? As I said earlier, ReadMe from WHDLoad.de mentions 2nd fire button support was fixed in the slave, so I am a bit confused (maybe it is implemented exclusively in AGA version).