Games supporting 2 (ie. independent) fire buttons?

[Aardvark]

Tested on my A1200 (AGA fixed ADF by Black Monks). Works as well with a 2 button joystick (The Suzo Arcade Turbo, rewired for 2 separate buttons).

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I use a Mega Drive joystick with my A500 (along with an adapter), and I cannot for the life of me detach the Force in R-Type (same with some other shmups, second button is inoperative) unless I hit the spacebar.

So stop using Megadrive joypad!
Since You wrote some bulls... omething before (you know what I mean) it seems something is working wrong on Your config. Mind that there is (very little, but it is) risk of damaging Paula because using as energy source for SEGA joypad if You don't switch wires 5 & 7. Please check it with appropriate software before writing more disinformation. I'm recommending JoyPortTest from AmiNet.

And I have news for You, some games have not mentioned in manual 2nd or even 3rd (!) button (mainly as pause) support but they have it.

[SquawkBox]

All right I PM'd you about an issue I had a while ago, then I asked you to ignore the content of that PM since my ideas had evolved. Then what ? What goes in PM stays in PM, except objectionable content of course.

It's nice of you to offer an updated list of such games, but why do we have to reach some external Polish web site to access the most up to date version ? Tit-for tat, ha !

My Paula is safe, no worries. If you were a more avid reader of the forum various contributions, you wouldn't have missed that post of mine in which I mention the benefits of using an adapter between the Mega Drive joypad / joystick and the db9 connector.

There's nothing "wrong" with my config per se, pal. It just won't allow second button support in R-Type, R-Type II and a few other games, mostly shmups, simple as that. I don't have the necessary knowledge to disassemble game code, if I had, I could tell you precisely why I may use second button in certain games (e.q. Snow Bros, Flashback...), but not in others. Btw, I might consider having one of my sticks rewired, I'll ask Aardvark in PM if he can point me in the right direction for resources about such mod (I have a spare 2-button Wico Command Control which would fit the bill, I'd rather keep my Mega Drive gear untouched).

Now, I'll leave it to you to maybe reconsider your piece of advice as to avoid using Mega Drive joypads or joysticks. Believe it or not, there is nothing wrong with using these on Amiga / C64 machines, assuming one plugs in a 20 quids adapter as a precautionary measure in between. The reason I wanted this particular device is because it offers to mimic "up for jump" with 2nd fire button in platformers, arcade racing games etc.. Retro gaming involves looking at the tradeoffs and compromises required, generally speaking.

Actually, there is room for improvement to increase 2nd button support with a config such as mine (mind you, I can bomb with button C of my Honey Bee Competition Pro in earok version of Flying Shark), but discussing the merits of such project is beyond the scope of this thread.

[jotd]

I don't think you really need a list. Just pick a game you like and check if whdload supports button 2 or/and 3. If it does not, just yell

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

It's nice of you to offer an updated list of such games, but why do we have to reach some external Polish web site to access the most up to date version ? Tit-for tat, ha !

Did You check who is OP of this thread? I cannot update this thread, and in Polish website I can edit list on my own. Additionally controls in many games are added and also links to informations about games on HoL. This cannot be done in this thread. So I don't understand Your indignation.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

There's nothing "wrong" with my config per se, pal. It just won't allow second button support in R-Type, R-Type II and a few other games, mostly shmups, simple as that.

Did You check this with any test software? Maybe values from adapter to analogue input are too low (or too big)?

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Now, I'll leave it to you to maybe reconsider your piece of advice as to avoid using Mega Drive joypads or joysticks.

You are using adapter and that's different case. I was talking about direct connection of joypad to Amiga/Commodore. So there is nothing to reconsider because You probably misunderstood what I mean.

[SquawkBox]

1. You could have created a separate thread then, but all right go ahead and "polish" ahem your list from the Polish web site aplenty if you wish, I don't mind at all (it's a minor annoyance, I can live with it as long as it's not hosted farther to the East ).
2. If your had mentioned the fact that some games do support a second button while at the same time, nor the manual nor the game options make any mention of it, I wouldn't have posted here about issue with R-Type. Not that I am asking you to edit your list accordingly. The reason I am telling you this is because you seem to consider from the day I sent you a PM about my adapter that I was trying to derail "your" thread. I took a look at that list of yours from the Polish web site a few times, which means there is application to be found, even for me and my limited understanding of said contribution of yours.
3. I don't need to have recourse to any test software at that point. The behaviour I described is exactly the same with a more sophisticated Mega Drive joypad, the Quickshot Maverick III, both are in good working order. While using the adapter, some games work, others don't, simple as that. In 2015, sandro gave a few pointers that could pertain to this issue :
   

   Originally Posted by Sandro

   the standard Amiga 2nd button not works in all games ie Aladdin, BCkid etc
   some games needs a 1k resistor connected to pin 9 and pin 7 (+5v)

   I have no soldering ability, so I wouldn't know how to modify my adapter and add such resistor (assuming it would do the trick). You said it yourself, it would put the Paula (well, the CIA) at risk to remove the adapter, and plug any of my MD joypads directly on my machine. So tell me, what choices are we being given, assuming we'd rather play from ADF, and not from WHDLoad ? To be using some crappy Master System pad ? Aardvark said his stick was rewired, I said I would consider having one of mine rewired, but does such modding service exist here or elsewhere ? I doubt it.
4. Again, it's perfectly fine to be using an adapter AND at the same time check your list for games that are supposed to work with 2nd fire button. You're not responsible for the few games that won't work with it, despite being mentioned on your list. Feel free to add a disclaimer if you want to discourage users of db9 adapters from interpreting each entry from your list too literally.
5. As I said earlier, Flying Shark SE is fully supported, so there must be a modern method to code a universal 2d fire button support for games that won't work with said adapter (or any other Mega Drive <-> C64 / Amiga adapter for the matter) in its current form. Of course, it would be a tedious task to tackle such project so I am not expecting ross or earok to make such attempts anytime soon. Discussing ways to improve support in software or electronically is beyond the scope of this thread admittedly, so I'll create a separate thread for that purpose if there is sufficient interest.

[jotd]

the standard Amiga 2nd button not works in all games ie Aladdin, BCkid etc

if coded properly it works. Coders just forgot to reset POTGO after reading it

  move.w #$FF01,$dff034

adding that (in whdload slave) or using readjoypad.s code that supports 2,3 and joypads allow to make those controls work. No soldering required.

[Aardvark]

I modded my joystick by following Jens' schematic, although it didn't detect 2nd button at all when resistor was connected. Without resistor it works with everything i've tried. http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/File:JoystickMod.jpg

[SquawkBox]

@Aardvark
Can you check 2nd fire button support for Mercs ? The manual makes no mention of a second button, and long press on F1 activates the megabomb which is the only special weapon AFAIK, so I am not sure it was implemented at all.

[Aardvark]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

@Aardvark
Can you check 2nd fire button support for Mercs ? The manual makes no mention of a second button, and long press on F1 activates the megabomb which is the only special weapon AFAIK, so I am not sure it was implemented at all.

it is implemented.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

The reason I am telling you this is because you seem to consider from the day I sent you a PM about my adapter that I was trying to derail "your" thread.

You are wrong. First of all there is nothing to "derail", You just write something what seems like You have some problems with hardware. Second thing it's not mine thread and I never told that.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I don't need to have recourse to any test software at that point.

So we are staying in place. There is no other method to check if everything's ok with hardware than using proper software/hardware.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

You said it yourself, it would put the Paula (well, the CIA) at risk to remove the adapter, and plug any of my MD joypads directly on my machine.

Paula, not CIA. Pins 9 (POTY/2nd button) and 5 (POTX/3rd buttons) are for analogue signal type with both input and output function. They are directly connected to Paula, not via CIA. So if You plug Sega MG joypad Paula is working as power source for IC of joypad. And as You probably know Paula was not designed for power source function. And that may be problem with these joypads without modification or adapter.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

So there must be a modern method to code a universal 2d fire button support for games that won't work with said adapter (or any other Mega Drive <-> C64 / Amiga adapter for the matter)

It's rather not possible, beacuse botton 2 and 3 are differently shorted on Amiga and Commodore. It's possible with switch which change source (GND/VCC).

[SquawkBox]

All right, it's not your thread. Having said that, that list from the Polish forum is the de facto list for games that support 2-button in some way or another for those among us who have an interest in this. I did put "your thread" between quotation marks, didn't I ? It is quite clear that SunChild implicitly or explicitly passed on the baton, so editing the list is a matter entirely between your hands these days. It's missing ross version of Ziriax btw, aka Ziriax Ultimate Edition btw (think Ziriax SE, so to speak).

I was wrong... to assume I could use the second button of my MD joypad with each and every of the OCS / ECS games you listed, that's the reason why I asked you to ignore the PM I sent you. My setup is fine (the Paula is safe, you can check the schematics if you're curious about how it is accomplished), really it is, it just won't allow second button presses with some of the games you listed (invariably, it's not due to some kind of shortcut, or a failing controller).

I can live with that, especially considering rainisto adapter allows second button to be assigned to up, which more than compensates the aforementioned functional limitation. Needless to say, it's quite clear to me R-Type and other games from your list won't work with my setup unless I try some other combination of adapter / controller. In doubt, I'll ask Aardvark again, so that you don't feel all weary and burdened because of me .

I was talking about potential fixes in software not at the electrical level, having the few games that won't work with the adapter patched following the methodology of earok, when the latter tackled Flying Shark. Of course, I realize patching ADF's for this reason alone might not be the most enticing thing to do, especially considering WHDLoad covers second button needs, mostly. Despite lack of power from Paula, I can actually use second button with a handful of games e.q. Snow bros, Flashback. If you're still unsure, I can make a quick video of the adapter + joypad in action.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

All right, it's not your thread. Having said that, that list from the Polish forum is the de facto list for games that support 2-button in some way or another for those among us who have an interest in this.

So why You didn't new thread with games working/not working/etc on Your config? I cannot check if it's not working because for me it works ok and except You nobody said that it's not. You cannot prove (until You check it right) that adapter which You have is 100% working well, did You? I was saying already that 2nd and 3rd buttons are measured as analogue input so values could be wrong for some games to recognise button press. But it's my hypothesis why in some games button could be not working ok.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I did put "your thread" between quotation marks, didn't I ?

And I get it in other, ironically accursing, meaning. But that's the power of misunderstanding. So we are even now.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

It is quite clear that SunChild implicitly or explicitly passed on the baton, so editing the list is a matter entirely between your hands these days.

Not so clear at all. I was talking with SunChild some time ago and he said that he'll update list when he would have some free time.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

It's missing ross version of Ziriax btw, aka Ziriax Ultimate Edition btw (think Ziriax SE, so to speak).

I'll add this with next update, thanks.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

My setup is fine (the Paula is safe, you can check the schematics if you're curious about how it is accomplished), really it is, it just won't allow second button presses with some of the games you listed

I was correcting that already it's for direct connection of joypad without modification or adapter. You have adapter so it's not Your case. I was explaining why it's risky in case if someone else would thinking about direct connection of unmodified joypad.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

(invariably, it's not due to some kind of shortcut, or a failing controller).

Never said that. I'm saying that adapter could give wrong values. Bear in mind that SEGA controller is fully digital, Amiga inputs for 2nd/3rd button are not.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Needless to say, it's quite clear to me R-Type and other games from your list won't work with my setup unless I try some other combination of adapter / controller.

Bingo! Now You and Me are singing in same pace.
I'll just add "...or check it with proper program"

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I was talking about potential fixes in software not at the electrical level, having the few games that won't work with the adapter patched following the methodology of earok, when the latter tackled Flying Shark. Of course, I realize patching ADF's for this reason alone might not be the most enticing thing to do, especially considering WHDLoad covers second button needs, mostly.

As JOTD said it's possible, but probably much easier with WHDLoad patch.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Despite lack of power from Paula, I can actually use second button with a handful of games e.q. Snow bros, Flashback. If you're still unsure, I can make a quick video of the adapter + joypad in action.

No, You're understand it wrong. This adapter takes power from correct pin, that could be done also swapping 5 and 7 pin wires. But adapter may give wrong value to Amiga analogue input, so this may be source of Your problems.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

So why You didn't new thread with games working/not working/etc on Your config?

That's part of the plan, I needed more insights, caught a cold in the meantime, so a bit slow on the draw . I've tested everything, and yeah it's about half working, half non working games in proportion. Maybe after recuperating, I'll create a thread about said C64 / Amiga <-> Mega Drive adapter in Hardware Mods section, though a bit moot if nobody else uses it.

You cannot prove (until You check it right) that adapter which You have is 100% working well, did You?

I reckon it does the job of supporting 2nd button imperfectly, but as I said, there are other benefits to using it, along with a MD joypad. I can't be bothered to test adapter atm, the reason being even if I noticed some malfunction, there isn't much I could do about it. Can we not return to this ? I think subject has been covered at that point.

I was correcting that already it's for direct connection of joypad without modification or adapter. You have adapter so it's not Your case. I was explaining why it's risky in case if someone else would thinking about direct connection of unmodified joypad.

Then what do you make of Quickshot QS-138F / QS-128F, which is advertised as supporting natively Mega Drive and Amiga (well, Atari / Commodore) standards, among other systems ? I've read that the select switch must be set to (D) SEGA for the stick to support 2nd button input. That would imply owners of that multi system stick put their Paula at risk when using the switch improperly, do you have a view on this issue ? Kinda misleading.

[Solo Kazuki]

Case with unmodified SEGA MegaDrive/Genesis describing it exactly:
SEGA MD controllers have VCC (5V) on pin 5, on pin 7 is changing buttons set signal between (B, C) and (A, Start). Amiga have VCC on pin 7, pin 5 is analogue both input and output. Pin 6 and 9 are same, that's why buttons B and C are working on Amiga. But, You take power not from VCC but from analogue input/output from Paula, which controller from SEGA MD takes as power source. To change this You must swap wires between 5 and 7 pins or use adapter which should do same thing.

In short:
When You plug unmodified in some way controller from MD/G You take power not from VCC but from POTX which is directly connected and controled by Paula, so You use Paula as power source. And this is reason why there is risk that it may damage Paula.

Edit:
Even (much) more risky is using SID same way on Commodore 64/128, especially old (6581) version because it is more delicate than new (8580) version.

Edit 2: There is way to use all four buttons of MD controllers, but first You must swap somehow wires 5 & 7. This way You can read state of POTX as swap of set same way as on MD is working. But of course You must have/write procedure to read and use this.

[Daedalus]

Also of concern is that, if Paula's output is dropped low by software, the logic chip in the MD pad is put in an undefined state beyond its specifications and unpredictable things can happen, including driving other outputs that shouldn't be driven. This could be the pad simply not working, it could be random activations or it could be stressing other I/O pins. Normally Paula's output remains high most of the time so there's little risk of this, but there are certain conditions where the output is set low - trying to read a CD32 pad is one such situation.

If there's a switch on a controller to set it to Megadrive / Other, it is most likely correcting the power connection, possibly tying MD pin 7 high, and possibly disabling the second button or connecting it up to the first so it acts as a 1-button controller. It could easily be modified to correct that, but leaving it in Megadrive mode to keep 2-button functionality will be no different to connecting a standard pad without an adaptor.

Yep, reading all MD buttons on the Amiga is simple with pins 5 & 7 swapped - with pin 5 set high you can read the D-pad and buttons B and C, with it set low you can read A and start, and also identify the controller with reasonable accuracy as a Megadrive pad as both left and right of the D-pad will be activated.

[SquawkBox]

It's the other way round, the switch enables second button support when set to Sega, whereas when set on Amiga (on Atari / Commodore) only one button is enabled. This is quite perplexing... I wonder...

Has there ever been one single period stick with 2-button support specifically made for the Amiga or the Atari ST ? It seems not. Has there ever been one single period stick or joypad with 2-button support which can be used safely on an Amiga without any modification ? Answer : The Sega Master System joypad full stop. A sad situation if you ask me. For future reference, here is the wiki entry of said Quickshot joystick.
In this post, Swevicus mentions the Competition Pro Star along with the QS-138F. He assumes the former was built specifically for SMS users (which implies "safe for the miggy" if plugged directly in either of the db9 ports), but after reading corresponding wiki entry, I would argue it may have been nothing more than a marketing gimmick. In other words, potential buyers of the so called SMS iteration of the Star should not assume it's not a Mega Drive stick (albeit an early one).

The history of the Star in regards to Sega consoles is not clear. It was released in North America advertising compatibility with the Sega Mega Drive, and Europe for the Sega Master System. Whether the Master System variant is limited in any way remains to be seen (the shell was never changed between Stars so all versions have four buttons).

Quoted from wiki entry of the Competition Pro Star.

So, a bit off topic, but I think it's worth mentioning that peeps should avoid plugging any of these two (three, if we include the non microswitch version of the Quickshot) joysticks on their machine, unless modified.

Last but not least, those of you who are interested in the Open C64 MD Adapter (despite its limitations) and have soldering abilities, no need to buy it assembled, you can get the kit for a few bucks from here. Since it's "open" to modifications, maybe someone will come up with a revision supporting more titles from the OP list (e.q. by fully testing it and adding resistors if need be). That would make my day, even it final product was to be sold in limited series.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

It's the other way round, the switch enables second button support when set to Sega, whereas when set on Amiga (on Atari / Commodore) only one button is enabled.

That is what I was saying...

Since it's "open" to modifications, maybe someone will come up with a revision supporting more titles from the OP list (e.q. by fully testing it and adding resistors if need be). That would make my day, even it final product was to be sold in limited series.

Most of that adaptor is superfluous for Amiga use, so if you were only using it on the Amiga and not the C64, you could ditch all the diodes, transistors, resistors and jumpers. This is how my adaptor is built. Maybe it's an excuse to learn to solder? But if correctly configured, there's no reason it shouldn't work with some titles if it works with others. Software reads the pins digitally, so it's not up to the game to interpret the reading of the pin as such; if it works for one title it should work for them all.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

you could ditch all the diodes, transistors, resistors and jumpers. This is how my adaptor is built.

I bet your homemade adapter cannot optionally assign second button to up . It's a nice addition, and for some even the main attraction of a 2+ button joystick... To be using second button to jump or to accelerate, worth owning a separate adapter which would allow that possibility me thinks.

But if correctly configured, there's no reason it shouldn't work with some titles if it works with others.

it's down to how the second button support was implemented, different patching methods were / are used apparently. Maybe the adapter was made with C64 in mind, and insufficiently tested with Amiga games. Disclaimer on adapter project page mentions that limitation :

In the older versions of the adapter, sometimes the second button was not recognized by some games, now a transistor is used to fix this issue.

Get the revision with the additional resistor / transistor then, I hear you say. Well, I searched eBay and unless I missed it, it seems there's no revised edition of the adapter (no assembled adapter based on a revised edition of the kit, more precisely).

And since you guys mention the possibility of assigning additional buttons (to pause the game etc.), I'd like to see this done in order to assign the space bar to a button, same with the enter key (e.q. in Hybris, both the space bar and the enter key serve some purpose). If I am about to pause a game, it's because I'll be doing something else anyway, so no biggie to reach over to the keyboard to pause. Apparently, assigning space bar to a button can be done on the C64 with two (a purely C64 / C128 adapter called the MEGA-GEN 64) adapters plugged in, with a wire soldered between the two of them (Skip to 4:07).


[ Show youtube player ]

You will hear the speech of a C64 FanGal, it's her who advertises that C64 adapter I just mentioned. Be prepared, as some of her intonations as she illustrates its key points sound a bit artificial.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I bet your homemade adapter cannot optionally assign second button to up

If that was something I wanted, it of course would do that too

it's down to how the second button support was implemented, different patching methods were / are used apparently. Maybe the adapter was made with C64 in mind, and insufficiently tested with Amiga games.

Seems odd... I'd love to know the technical reasons for that difference between different titles. I've developed lots of different hardware to connect to the controller port and never had an issue detecting the second button. There are common faults on the A1200 and A600 that can cause issues detecting the second button, and it could also be down to Paula's pull-ups being too strong for the multiplexer in the MD pad, but they're hardware things, not software things, so if they cause a problem, it would be across all software.

The C64 is a different story indeed - it uses an opposite polarity signal for the second button so a transistor or inverter is required, but the Amiga uses active low for all three button inputs.

Get the revision with the additional resistor / transistor then, I hear you say. Well, I searched eBay and unless I missed it, it seems there's no revised edition of the adapter (no assembled adapter based on a revised edition of the kit, more precisely).

Maybe it's time to learn to solder then Though if the input being not-quite-0V is the issue (in which case it should affect all games), then ditching the diodes as I suggested might be a better idea since they ensure the input can't go below the forward voltage drop of around 0.6V.

And since you guys mention the possibility of assigning additional buttons (to pause the game etc.), I'd like to see this done in order to assign the space bar to a button, same with the enter key (e.q. in Hybris, both the space bar and the enter key serve some purpose).

Don't most games use a key for pause anyway?

Apparently, assigning space bar to a button can be done on the C64 with two (a purely C64 / C128 adapter called the MEGA-GEN 64) adapters plugged in, with a wire soldered between the two of them (Skip to 4:07).

This is because the C64 shares signals between the joystick ports and the keyboard (and is the reason MD pads are so dangerous for C64s in the first place, as well as why characters are typed on the screen when you move the joystick). A similar approach won't work on the Amiga; thankfully, we have WHDLoad for adding button functionality from the software side instead.