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#41 |
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Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Ur, Atlantis
Posts: 2,198
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This thread is probably the most "scientific" and thourough attempt I've seen so far: https://forums.libretro.com/t/an-inp...gation/4407/88
I linked to the most popular test, you can start at the beginning, there's more. Tldr would be that there can be between 5-8 frames of lag on RPi, depending on settings and emulator. This was done few years ago and before RPi4, which is faster, and the whole runahead thing (which isn't a magic bullet though). Overall, even with the latter factors, it's inevitable that there will be still some lag. The question is, how significant it really is? For me, the whole issue is quite interesting from a more psychological point of view. I'm pretty sure some of the people with views similar to @admiral here, who claim the extreme sensitivity, would fail a blind abx-like test, at least on the lower end of spectrum (which ~5 frames falls under). Or, they would eventually get used to it, which is what I've heard many times as well. In fact there is a sort of a test like that (it's the second one): https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/...input_lag.html It's a bit tricky and I'm not sure if I was doing it right because I completely failed it, even on the highest setting ![]() On the other hand, for people who claim that they can't feel any difference - well, if you don't, you don't, I guess ![]() Bottom line is, low/zero lag is a nice thing to have, but I wouldn't paint it as a make or break issue, like some people do (meaning of course reasonably well adjusted setups - on some TVs and/or badly set up computers or emu boxes it really can be a HUGE issue). |
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#42 |
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Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Greece
Posts: 992
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Ok, this was a good read, although this is far from a scientific article. At least he mentions his precise setup so that, potentially, these results could be tested/replicated. Thanks for sharing, mate.
We also have to take into account the inherent neurological input lag from observing a stimulus (sensory) to processing it (cortical activity) to reacting to it (motor activity). This has been studied a lot and it is about 200ms and is affected by a number of factors (including age). What is important is that the brain compensates for this lag, so that we don't feel that lag. My completely amateur hypothesis would be that individual differences in these factors (as well as expectations-like our friend admiral) make up for (or at least affect significantly) differences in >perceived< input lag (vs. actual input lag). I also, like you, alternate between various systems (A500, Rpi4, V4 and a weedy Linux PC) playing the same games, quite often back to back and, TBH, I am sure I wouldn't be able to differentiate between them in a blind test. Furthermore, I don't think that I am adapting to this lag, since for games that require lightning fast reflexes (eg Kick Off 2), I should feel the (however subtle) difference when playing back to back, especially when comparing from emulation first to real HW. |
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#43 |
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,464
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Ah, but I'd guess there is a reason why you may still notice lag below 200ms. See, it's not just your perception, but also you actions that are delayed. So if you press a button (with about 200ms of 'built-in' lag) and then perceive the result of your action not after 400ms since 'starting' the push button 'action' (which would be 0 input lag), but rather at 500ms then I don't think it's unreasonable you could perceive that as 100ms of lag.
My totally-not-scientific guess is that some people are more sensitive to these delays than others. |
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#44 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Greece
Posts: 992
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Quote:
These 5-7 frames from dreadnought's post account for how many ms? We are talking about 50 frames per second? If so, then 1000/50=20ms for each frame. For 5-7 frames, that adds up to 100-140ms, well within the 200ms of a young, healthy (and sober :P ) person's response time. But this only if actually response time accounts for perceived input lag. My (also totally not scientific) guess is that the same factors that affect response time affect sensitivity to input lag. |
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#45 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Ur, Atlantis
Posts: 2,198
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@manossg: by "scientific" I mean that his methodology is very thorough - he took a lot of factors into account and also tried really hard to come up with proper measurement solution. Especially when comparing to countless other tests I saw which either did none of these things, missed some, or used some questionable measurement methods.
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What I've also heard from many top-level twitch game players is that what's more important from having super low, or no lag, is actually to have constant lag (reasonably low as well, of course). This way you can get used to it and achieve very good results/scores. |
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#46 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,464
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Quote:
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#47 |
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Belgrade / Serbia
Age: 41
Posts: 1,017
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If you dont feel the lag when playing pinball games then dont bother is it emulation or whatever.
Also if you dont have that unexplainable awesome feeling cause your using real Amiga then again dont bother, use whatever's most comfortable for you. |
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#48 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 148
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Quote:
My advice if going for a real amiga would be to go to somewhere like retropassion or ami64 rather than eBay. You'll pay a little more but you know what you'll be getting. I'm having a blast catching up on it all, but I'm a programmer, not a gamer, so YMMV in terms of what you need/want. If its just to play games on you might actually be better running an emulator so you can switch from 500/1200 1.3/2.x/3.x as required :-) |
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#49 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: .
Posts: 268
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#50 |
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Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: UK
Posts: 94
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I think that would be have been a good option if I had known about it but in the end I went for Mister FPGA. The amount I ended up spending isn't that far off the price of a A1200 on retropassion though.
I don't regret my decision though because I do like having the option of other systems too on the Mister and it takes up a lot less space than a A1200 would have done. There is still that part of me tempted because I always wanted a A1200 when I was young and it would be the chance to really see what I missed out on but I must resist. |
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#51 |
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Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23
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WinUAE is great
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#52 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Detroit
Posts: 58
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Quote:
![]() I didn't see any mention of the un-amiga or the Turbo Chameleon 64, but those are each good FPGA options as well. |
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