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View Poll Results: Does computers evolve slower then before? | |||
Yes | 55 | 80.88% | |
No | 10 | 14.71% | |
They evolve at pretty much the same pace, from the beginning | 3 | 4.41% | |
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll |
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13 July 2021, 20:13 | #121 |
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The same way, Rembrandt painting is better then this:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3oyF25WGTZM/maxresdefault.jpg LOL - what are you talking about? The best 3D looking games have their core in 2D concept arts. The best looking movies have their core in 2D concepts and color scripts. Pixel art is one of the hardest forms of painting. Especially with limited numbers of colors... however, what some people pulled of with it, is stunning. 3D modeling is piece of cake for that (in majority cases) |
13 July 2021, 20:33 | #122 | |||
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IS 3D modelling a "piece of cake"? Have you ever developed a AAA game on PC and console in the last ten years? Or worked on a Pixar movie, ever? I haven't neither, but I've seen documentaries, and it requires more skills (of a different kind, I grant you) than pixel pushing. |
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13 July 2021, 21:00 | #123 | |||
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But I am reminding you. All the atmosphere you see and like in Doom 3 and Quake 3, is not their engine's "press magic button", but it's the stages designed with careful observing 2D drawings and concept art. Quote:
Actually, right now I am involved in game cinematic creation. As an FX guy, I don't model much these days, but I did a lot's of modeling, and occasionally I model stuff when I need it (though, it's very boring for me personally). Here is my (old) demoreel: [ Show youtube player ] Quote:
I am 100% sure if I told him what you wrote here, he would say he strongly disagree with you, because we are talking all the time about similar topics. I repeat... Let's take a chair for example: - 3D Model - Pixel Art Modeling is peace of cake. You just build several boxes, and position them accordingly. Pixel art drawing is waaay harder. |
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13 July 2021, 21:38 | #124 | |
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Go check how high poly characters are made for games (sculpted in Zbrush for example), give it a try and show us the result. I takes *weeks* of work to get a good looking character with proper modeling/UVs/materials (cloth, skin, hair, eyes etc). And good luck with hair. And I'm not even counting rigging, facial animation, dynamic wrinkles and things like that. |
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13 July 2021, 21:41 | #125 |
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Whoops, I guess I assumed, and made asses out of us. Sorry.
I did a small amount of modelling on Real 3D on Amiga, and built a few maps from scratch for Quake 3, so I know what it's like, if that sort of modelling counts. However, I also tried my hand at pixel art a few times, and while my work more or less no longer exists, except for one example I might be able to take a still of, from a strange source, I was always bothered by the severe constraints placed on me by 32 colours (and this example I mentioned was on the Atari ST!). So what impresses me most about pixel art is the maximum use of constrained resources, using stippling to achieve extra shades, etc. I can only imagine that building the initial colour palettes for these pixelled images must be a nightmare, as so much planning must be involved before even touching the mouse! |
13 July 2021, 21:42 | #126 | |
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I am just trying to explain to Foebane, that 2D art is behind everything. That's why I mentioned chair. Inorganic object. For the Z-brush modeling, and character creation, you'll need to know human anatomy very well! How can we learn it? 2D drawing. Observing, and studying the books. I am not saying 3D is easy per se... I mean.. trying to explain someone who isn't in this "business", why 2D is so damn important. Hope you understand me better now. |
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13 July 2021, 21:45 | #127 |
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13 July 2021, 21:51 | #128 |
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Here we go, my attempt at pixel art from 1990 (attached).
The reason it looks so dreadful is that it's been taken from a black & white TV connected to the Atari ST, then filmed with a Super 8 camera, then the cine film transferred to DVD, and finally transcoded a couple of times by the time it got to YouTube. But it does show my efforts to create a piece of pixel artwork, I even had the shading and the lighting effects right, and I'm proud of the rings and the shadows cast by Saturn. It was meant to be one of many, and I was going to make ST chiptune versions of Holst's The Planets classical music pieces, until I realised it was too much of a tall, unattainable order. |
13 July 2021, 21:53 | #129 | |||
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Modeling in Real 3D is waaaay harder then modeling today. Today, is way easier to observe the model, to add, delete, extrude, vetrecies and polygons. I also started in Real3D, btw Quote:
And you even better described it here bellow: Quote:
100% correct! You either try to draw several times, or you must smartly plan ahead. Either way is very demanding. One more reason to admire pixel art masterpieces done so far. |
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13 July 2021, 21:56 | #130 |
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14 July 2021, 12:25 | #131 |
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The next revolution is in AI, and dedicated AI compute hardware. We're already seeing huge gains in functionality. In any situation where a "good enough" answer will suffice, i.e. what regular humans can ballpark on a much smaller scale, AI will yield some amazing results. Code optimization will involve moving heavy lifting out of pure deterministic code, much the same way that current optimization involves moving as much parallelizable code as possible to multiple cores, vector processors, and GPUs.
The next big leap for old fashioned code, where it is unavoidable, will be photonic processors, but this hasn't happened yet. That said, while there is no good turing-complete photonic processor yet, there are already photonic matrix processors coming onto the market that can beat silicon (we may see GPUs and AI accelerators go at least partially photonic industry-wide in the near future). |
14 July 2021, 14:53 | #132 | |
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anyway this discussion happened a lot since last i was here, many interesting points made. something that occurs is that it's kind of hard to untangle developments in technology from developments in technique. at the same time as the hardware is getting better, people are learning how to make best use of what's available already, such that if you look at the stuff that people are making now for old hardware it's really amazing! so i wonder what people will be able to make in 20 years time, for our current generation of hardware. |
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14 July 2021, 16:57 | #133 |
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14 July 2021, 17:57 | #134 | |
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Let's start with Doom and Quake (and I did one of the first Quake ports for the Amiga, before the source was open). Do you really have fun playing them today? More than Turrican, Cannon Fodder, Monkey Island, Chaos Engine, Kick Off, etc.?
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I respect your opinion, of course. But reading your posting #105 http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=105 basically means that you cannot understand how anybody could prefer a 2D game from the 90s to a 3D game from the 90s. |
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14 July 2021, 18:09 | #135 |
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i liked Mercenary III
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14 July 2021, 18:52 | #136 | |
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Quake in multiplayer mode is still fun. Last edited by mrsebe; 14 July 2021 at 21:03. |
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14 July 2021, 19:49 | #137 |
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For classic Amiga platform, we don't need to follow mainstream.
I think most people would be happy with that Amiga games just used better resolution and more colors. For high-quality productions, forget A500, and make it A1200 AGA+accelerator board or Vampire. For example, intro screen made in 640x512 resolution and 256 colors noninterlaced (or HAM8) works on AGA machines: https://www.behance.net/gallery/1697...-art-redrawing This artwork is really on another level, compared to e.g. 320x256 and 32 colors. Mrs Beanbag proposed earlier the following as a background for an enhanced turrican game: http://www.glastonbridge.co.uk/amy/m...n-parallax.png And I believe similar other examples exist too. |
14 July 2021, 20:11 | #138 |
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hehe well personally i target unexpanded A1200..
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14 July 2021, 22:14 | #139 | |
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Phx thinks that by playing Doom and Quake, I'm playing the single-player campaign alone and going through the same levels over and over again. Phx, no-one who plays those games plays the single-player more than once, unless it's beating it on all difficulties. No, what I and others did on those games was to play MULTIPLAYER DEATHMATCH with REAL PEOPLE ONLINE, which is a helluvalot more exciting, I think, than the single-player Amiga games you mentioned. Believe me, once you've tried games like that and won a few against people with similar skill sets, you'll be hooked! But I gather you and many other Amiga gamers never did that, right? In fact, that's what I think the problem is: Amiga gaming is solitary, unlike PC gaming. There may be several two-player split-screen games on the Amiga, but nothing on the sheer scale of up to 16 or 32 players on PC, or heck, even 64 or more on specialist maps! And there's more than just shooting: my personal favourite game for a long time has been Team Fortress Classic, which gives you distinct goals to achieve as well as fighting your opposition, and it can take a long time to master the nine or so classes available. As I said, you'll never know the joy of it if you've never tried it and remained stuck under the Amiga rock. Also, Phx, unlike the Amiga games you mentioned, there were THOUSANDS of ADD-ON MAPS for the Doom and Quake series, so if one got bored of the maps that came with the games, there were many, many other to try, with extreme diversity in layouts and settings. Indeed, the first year I had my PC, after I got bored of the stock Doom 2 maps, I tried CD-ROMs filled with these extra maps and had a whale of a time that lasted several months in total! I'd like to see Amiga games do that! This is an example of add-on maps for Quake 3 Arena: https://lvlworld.com/ Last edited by Foebane; 14 July 2021 at 22:36. |
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15 July 2021, 01:23 | #140 |
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I think the real disconnect here is that you assume that Amiga gamers haven't played these games in multiplayer mode. I certainly did. And I still find 1990's 2D games to be excellent fun, often way more than those early 3D games. That said, I'd never argue that someone who has the opposite opinion is therefore 'wrong' or that those old 3D games are 'crap'. After all, what games people like is just their opinion. No wrong or right about it.
Honestly, I don't get why we're not just all accepting that people have different tastes. There's nothing wrong with liking or disliking something |
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