19 April 2017, 13:46 | #61 |
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19 April 2017, 18:20 | #62 | |
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Reading and manually tweaking machine generated code is a exceptionally challenging considering how much code would be involved. Well, at least you can check the original source code and compare the output to what the original intention was, but that's no help for a few hundred individual source code files, producing thousands of lines of assembly code to pore over. A compiler is a tool which is intended to make you more productive by letting you express machine instructions with less effort, conquering complex tasks more easily. Think of the compiler as a means to "compress" programs. The assembly language output which it produces is by design less expressive, much larger and requires much more effort to understand. And these are massive problems which balloon before the equally challenging step of integrating the changes into the target system are considered. |
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19 April 2017, 19:26 | #63 | |
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The overwhelming question is, is continued Amiga development worthy of investment and development? There are only 2 Amiga continuation options I see. Switch to another architecture (ARMv8 would probably be easiest) using commodity hardware or develop custom hardware (using FPGA technology). Switching to another architecture is probably easier and appears to be less risky, at least on the surface. Most of the development would be to the AmigaOS (or AROS) and compatibility would be through a sand box Amiga emulator. If this route is chosen, there is little advantage to wasting resources to open source P96 (or CGFX) as these are already integrated in AROS and we would be abandoning the 68k architecture. It would be better to fund further progress to the AmigaOS (or AROS) toward new architectures. Funding AROS really puts the pressure on Hyperion and A-Eon to compete (risk on instead of milking the cow to death). The AmigaOS can become open source more easily (cheaper) if/when they are irrelevant but it won't matter much as AROS will have replaced it. Choosing to stay with the 68k and develop it provides the best compatibility, retains the most Amiga users and allows for Amiga innovation again but likely would need an initial investment of millions of dollars for a mass produced affordable hardware. Open sourcing the AmigaOS could be helpful in this scenario but so would paying to improve AROS 68k (if no official 68k AmigaOS development). A Clone-A with ARM CPU emulating a 68k is not likely to be enough with the Apollo Core applying pressure through competition to Jen's business. Too bad we can't all work together and pool resources to bring the Amiga back the way it should be done. I would invest in a proper 68k project with AmigaOS development but just funding open sourcing is not enough for me even though I prefer for the sources to be available. |
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19 April 2017, 20:23 | #64 | |
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I've probably spent (in the 2-3 years) 1-2000 GBP on Amiga kit directly and another 2000 on equipment and parts relating to creating accelerators. This means i've spent more than I would have on a top end laptop to enjoy a 30 year old platform going slightly faster. Its not because I think Amiga is useful or something to invest in for the future... its just something I love(d) doing. I'm not kidding myself that there is a future here. Its fun/hobby/niche. |
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19 April 2017, 21:29 | #65 |
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lets start with, that what you call aros68k, except maybe very few asm inlines in code, that may happen to use some 68020 instructions, are currently being compiled for plain 68000. there are seome patches installed by setpatch at runtime, if the user invokes it, for instance in the s-s, but thats it.
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19 April 2017, 21:48 | #66 | |||
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and all this in a system that takes 10mb as basic package, and needs few mb to run. if you think about it right, there are very few amiga features for which you would want to keep the original os in comparison. currently it is stability, or rather iwould say compatibility, sicnce aros is not randomly instable from my experience, and obviously speed. other than that pal/ntsc overscan, screen dragging with different resolutions and support ofr some other unique feats of amiga chipset is missing. Quote:
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look, i made a number of commits within last few days, which in aros weekly report are considered being 68k/gcc4.6 fixes. in fact only few of these are 68k exclusive. |
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19 April 2017, 23:04 | #67 | |
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NES classic edition has sold 1.5 million units (despite shortages) Natami MX bringup thread had 761487 views Your dueling banjos video has 6860 views lantus360's CannonBall video has 5252 views You don't think a 68k computer/console which can play Amiga/CD32, Atari ST, Neo Geo, Sega Genesis/Mega Drive, x68000, 68k arcade games, etc. with 68k+FPGA while providing Raspberry Pi like computer features would sell? The NES classic was only the 3rd best selling console in January 2017 and none of these other 68k systems offer that much retro goodness now do they? A 68k system with 1 GB of memory like the Raspberry Pi would never be enough either would it? I guess we have different opinions on what is "worthy of investment". I don't want to "donate" money for something without a future. I am an investor, Amiga fan, 68k fan and retro computer fan and I want to invest in something which will further those causes. I see the retro interest and all the FPGA talent and work which already exists in the Amiga community but is wasted because of lack of investment, cooperation and leadership. Mass production is the only way to lower prices enough to bring in new customers and a new generation which are necessary to sustain the Amiga. The greatest risk to the Amiga is the current status quo of deterioration followed by certain death. It is this which is not worthy of investment, IMO. |
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19 April 2017, 23:24 | #68 | |
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My dueling banjos video has made less than $1 of ad revenue. Which considering it took me 2-3 hours to setup and shoot is well below minimum wage. My TF530 card was between 1-2000 hours of work. If i was serious about making money on this project the cards would need to sell for 150-200 GBP per card. Which wouldn't be viable. |
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20 April 2017, 00:34 | #69 | ||
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20 April 2017, 01:26 | #70 |
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really? you want to develop wholesale strategies on how to bring amiga back to relevant market? and most curiously have the community of sworn individuals (except os4 crowd) to obey it? amiga is anarchy. live with it!
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20 April 2017, 03:18 | #71 | ||
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20 April 2017, 03:29 | #72 |
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Good attitude there PeterK.
And wawa you made me laugh out lout with that, "Amiga is anarchy. Live with it.". So true that it should be a t-shirt. |
20 April 2017, 04:00 | #73 | |
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Branding yes I agree is very important how about Icon For4ks as a name? |
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20 April 2017, 07:29 | #74 |
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Even if they hand over everything it won't get you anywhere without porting everything to ARM which I guess is a massive job.
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20 April 2017, 10:34 | #75 | |
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Future versions? What are you talking about? I'm an old man and my job is done! (Bugfixes are an exception, of course) Icon For4ks? No, I've no more plans for the rest of my life to buy another new PC and a 4k display. That would also need a better upscaling function. My Amiga screenmode is still 1280x800 on my 1920x1200 monitor. Enough pixels! |
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20 April 2017, 20:08 | #76 |
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As a simple message on this moment, I contacted Cloanto yesterday and got a message from Mike Battilana that at least gives some space to start negotiations. I asked if I'm allowed to put the messages in verbatim on this thread and will do so if he agrees.
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20 April 2017, 23:29 | #77 | |
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I meant ForA4ks, like "For A4000s" since that's what I use it on, actually A2000 and CDTV too but maybe people would just be happy and delighted that it worked on Not-A4000s. How about "Icon of Good"? Or GoodIcon, hang on it's on the tip of my brain. BestIcon library? |
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20 April 2017, 23:46 | #78 |
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Much appreciated!
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21 April 2017, 12:07 | #79 |
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@michaelz
Thank you so much for doing that! I feel the start of some genuine momentum here. |
21 April 2017, 21:25 | #80 |
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Okay, I just send another 2 page e-mail to Mike Battilana and there genuinely seems to be a foothold.
In the first place, Mike mentioned bringing up the idea of getting a non-profit to "own" Amiga a few times earlier; [ Show youtube player ], AmiCast #11 and at the [ Show youtube player ]. On this moment I can't place the e-mails in verbatim here, but he really strikes me as someone with the communities best interest in mind. What I can mention is that he is willing to provide "free" beta-test licences to people who participated in this thread until now. This would probably involve giving back some technical feedback for those who participate, but I'm currently asking what strings would be attached. I don't mind some strings, but I want to have those strings clear before I start offering "free licences" just like that. Would people be interested in this (of course; depending on what the strings are)? |
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