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-   -   Connecting a real c64 SID to the amiga (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=109035)

Lisko 03 December 2021 12:45

Connecting a real c64 SID to the amiga
 
Hi, I know that the amiga version of catweasel allows you to connect a real c64 sid and for using it with playsid. Unfortunately the catweasel is not in production anymore and it is very rare. Since I don't really need the catweasel for its reading/writing abilities but only for connecting the sid, how much difficult could be to just make a sid interface? Can someone help me with the specifics and knows how that part of the catweasel works? Thank you

chb 03 December 2021 12:59

You could have a look at this project:
https://www.pcbway.com/project/share..._Zorro_II.html

Lisko 04 December 2021 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by chb (Post 1520065)
You could have a look at this project:
https://www.pcbway.com/project/share..._Zorro_II.html

Thank you but I should have specified that I have an Amiga 1200 in a standard desktop case so zorro II isn't an option, I would need a parallel/serial solution.

pandy71 05 December 2021 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisko (Post 1520170)
I would need a parallel/serial solution.

Or clockport/IDE interface internal...

Pyromania 05 December 2021 05:43

Why not comment a pair of them for stereo 3D sound?

Solo Kazuki 05 December 2021 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandy71 (Post 1520276)
Or clockport/IDE interface internal...

Clockport is nice idea, but IDE is IDE so it's not good idea this way.

Solo Kazuki 05 December 2021 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyromania (Post 1520283)
Why not comment a pair of them for stereo 3D sound?

It's not working this way. I have C64 with MixSID (two SIDs) and it can work stereo only if song is in stereo, normal ones are played same on both SIDs.
Even more interesting would be adding support for rather new 3SID standard option with three SIDs.

pandy71 05 December 2021 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki (Post 1520295)
Clockport is nice idea, but IDE is IDE so it's not good idea this way.

IDE connector is 16 bit data bus easily available... Amiga IDE use CPU and IDE address space is not fully used so...

Marce 06 December 2021 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisko (Post 1520064)
Hi, I know that the amiga version of catweasel allows you to connect a real c64 sid and for using it with playsid. Unfortunately the catweasel is not in production anymore and it is very rare. Since I don't really need the catweasel for its reading/writing abilities but only for connecting the sid, how much difficult could be to just make a sid interface? Can someone help me with the specifics and knows how that part of the catweasel works? Thank you

why you want a real sid in the AMiga
the playsid library works very well and the sound generated in sid files is somehow similar to the original

if you want a perfect sid sound try in a PC winamp 2.95 + SidAMP 2.4b plugin

Daedalus 06 December 2021 10:16

The clockport would be an option, but it's not as easy as it might first appear. Looking at the SID, it looks like it has 5 address lines (32 registers). The clockport only has 4 address lines.

IDE isn't ideal, but it has been used in the past - the Catweasel Mk 2 could optionally be connected to the IDE port instead of the clockport, for example.

pandy71 07 December 2021 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus (Post 1520437)
The clockport would be an option, but it's not as easy as it might first appear. Looking at the SID, it looks like it has 5 address lines (32 registers). The clockport only has 4 address lines.

Use indirect addressing - two locations - one for address, second for data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus (Post 1520437)
IDE isn't ideal, but it has been used in the past - the Catweasel Mk 2 could optionally be connected to the IDE port instead of the clockport, for example.

IDE is just convenient connector with 16 bits data bus available...

PR77 07 December 2021 08:57

I really like the idea of a SID Chip connected to an Amiga. Does anyone know at what memory address the SID Chip is expected to be available at? Might be a nice add on to some of my projects. :D

Daedalus 07 December 2021 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandy71 (Post 1520574)
Use indirect addressing - two locations - one for address, second for data.

Yep, it's just not as simple as connecting the SID to the bus as is the case with the Zorro card.

Quote:

IDE is just convenient connector with 16 bits data bus available...
Yep, as I pointed out, it's been used like that before. Using the IDE port like that requires careful consideration, like incompatibility with IDE splitters for example.

I'm not really sure what the purpose of your post was - I was just pointing out that these other ways of connecting it are a bit more involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR77 (Post 1520602)
I really like the idea of a SID Chip connected to an Amiga. Does anyone know at what memory address the SID Chip is expected to be available at? Might be a nice add on to some of my projects. :D

The Zorro adaptor linked to above appears to map it to 0xA00000-0xA0003E (bytes at even addresses). That seems to be where it's expected to be by the software written for it years ago, but if you're writing your own software, you could put it wherever you like. A more "proper" way to do it in a Zorro machine would be to add it as an autoconfig I/O device, rather than a fixed address device that needs special software.

Lisko 07 December 2021 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marce (Post 1520425)
why you want a real sid in the AMiga
the playsid library works very well and the sound generated in sid files is somehow similar to the original

if you want a perfect sid sound try in a PC winamp 2.95 + SidAMP 2.4b plugin

Playsid itself supports the catweasel's sid chip. For basic tunes full software playsid works well enough but on some advanced ones sounds pretty different and doesn't emulate some effects at all. Cloning the catweasel's clockport sid adapter would be the way to go but from where to start?

pandy71 07 December 2021 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus (Post 1520612)
Yep, it's just not as simple as connecting the SID to the bus as is the case with the Zorro card.

Some resources in Amiga are not Autoconfig controlled, they are present at fixed addresses and thank to some design shortcuts you can use them without ruin complete system functionality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus (Post 1520612)
Yep, as I pointed out, it's been used like that before. Using the IDE port like that requires careful consideration, like incompatibility with IDE splitters for example.

Never claimed that this is trivial but also not so complicated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus (Post 1520612)
I'm not really sure what the purpose of your post was - I was just pointing out that these other ways of connecting it are a bit more involved.

There is no other purpose than pointing that there are non-Zorro Amiga machines so other than Zorro resources can be used to accommodate SID within Amiga...

Daedalus 07 December 2021 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandy71 (Post 1520749)
Some resources in Amiga are not Autoconfig controlled, they are present at fixed addresses and thank to some design shortcuts you can use them without ruin complete system functionality.

Indeed they are, and I've used them for many of my own hardware developments. I'm confused about what your point is here... Or did you mean to reply to the text further down regarding Autoconfig and the "proper" way to do it, which was in the context of a Zorro card?

Quote:

There is no other purpose than pointing that there are non-Zorro Amiga machines so other than Zorro resources can be used to accommodate SID within Amiga...
... which had already been said (and which I didn't disagree with). Again, still confused about what point you're trying to make here.

pandy71 07 December 2021 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus (Post 1520754)
Indeed they are, and I've used them for many of my own hardware developments. I'm confused about what your point is here... Or did you mean to reply to the text further down regarding Autoconfig and the "proper" way to do it, which was in the context of a Zorro card?
... which had already been said (and which I didn't disagree with). Again, still confused about what point you're trying to make here.

So please go back to http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...4&postcount=11

Replied to concerns raised by you - from my perspective this is OK solution for limited address space.

if there is another reason of your confusion then i must say: your confusion currently confusing me too...

Perhaps it will be easier to do some systematic approach.

  • Is there any SID for non-Zorro Amiga models?
  • Is there any possibility to create some SID extension for non-Zorro Amiga models?
  • Clock Port feasibility?
  • IDE Port feasibility?
  • other ideas?

Marce 08 December 2021 04:09

btw,

The commodore Amiga should have built in a SID chip from scratch
or at least since 1987 when the A500 was out

together with paula there would have been 7 audio channels
4 for music and 3 for sid sound effects
The video games would have been different and much better in sound
and not all the crap created which you choose between audio effects or music

We would also have had a perfect emulation in a 020 of the commodore 64, today is not very possible unless you have a 040/40mhz or 060/50 since the SID emulation waste lot of cpu time

now is late for that, it does not make sense for me get into complications when something is not standard nobody is going to create good software

Solo Kazuki 08 December 2021 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandy71 (Post 1520365)
IDE connector is 16 bit data bus easily available... Amiga IDE use CPU and IDE address space is not fully used so...

You completely missed the point and all running discussion after. Since IDE would be blocked by SID interface, how You'll run system and software? From floppy?
Most people use IDE to connect hard disk (or similar) unit. So that's why interface on IDE is rather not too god idea.

pandy71 08 December 2021 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki (Post 1520896)
You completely missed the point and all running discussion after. Since IDE would be blocked by SID interface, how You'll run system and software? From floppy?
Most people use IDE to connect hard disk (or similar) unit. So that's why interface on IDE is rather not too god idea.

Are you familiar with concept of the piggyback?
As SID require PCB anyway then adding passtrough IDE connector looks to me pretty obvious - of course there are concerns raised by Daedalus associated with some IDE extensions/buffers but still for plain A1200 with only single IDE HDD connected this is neat point (IDE port) where data bus is available and some address lines also provided.


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