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-   support.WinUAE (https://eab.abime.net/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Vampire/SAGA support (https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=108476)

Int42 11 October 2021 06:41
Vampire/SAGA support
 
Hello,

I'm interested in 68080 and SAGA programming for a Apollo Vampire V4, but I love to code thinks on a PC and don't like coding directly on Amiga or C64, so I use VisualStudioCode for Amiga- and C64-Studio for C64 development on my PC and run my programs in an Emulator like Vice or WinUAE.

Will be a support for 68080 and SAGA Chipset in the near Future in WinUAE? I don't want directly code on an Apollo Vampire Standalone, but I will development for that platform on a PC.

Toni Wilen 11 October 2021 08:59
Moved from beta thread.

Sorry but answer is no. Check older threads.

Int42 11 October 2021 09:43
Ok, thank you for your fast response. In my case this mean, no crossdev, no buying vampire v4, no new software for that platform from my side.

kamelito 11 October 2021 11:11
Cross dev is already possible as VASM support 68080, you just can't test under emulation.

Minuous 11 October 2021 11:20
Better to avoid non-standard extensions like that anyway to ensure that it will run on all systems.

Int42 11 October 2021 11:54
Is there a toolchain out for develop stuff on a pc, transfer and debug automatic on the vampire v4 standalone?
If not how will apollo get enough people as developer? No PC-toolchain and no emulation on PC seems a total showstopper for this project in my opinion?
No new software will be created and the great Vampire will live a life as turbocard only and not as a new SAGA Amiga.

S0ulA55a551n 11 October 2021 12:05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Int42 (Post 1510778)
Is there a toolchain out for develop stuff on a pc, transfer and debug automatic on the vampire v4 standalone?
If not how will apollo get enough people as developer? No PC-toolchain and no emulation on PC seems a total showstopper for this project in my opinion?
No new software will be created and the great Vampire will live a life as turbocard only and not as a new SAGA Amiga.
As someone who owns two vampires, I totally bought them as a fast 68k accelerator with some other handy addons.

I think SAGA is dead-end, we don't need to split the user base even further, already have 68k, ppc, AOS 3.x , AOS4,x (ppc) , MorphOS (ppc).

I think its better to target 68k ECS or AGA.

The Vampire user base and hence SAGA is soooo small in comparison to ECS, AGA , is there an ROI in developing just for SAGA ?

Solo Kazuki 11 October 2021 12:54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Int42 (Post 1510778)
No new software will be created and the great Vampire will live a life as turbocard only and not as a new SAGA Amiga.
Vampire maker is trying force standards which doesn't have real hardware existed already. There is 68060 with possibility of 105MHz (Warp 560/1260) and if ECS or AGA is not enough You can always target existed RTG solutions. This way software will work on some real Amiga configs and also on Vampire SAGA, which is just new forced standard of RTG.

kamelito 11 October 2021 14:17
One can target AHI/RTG and it will work on others high end Amiga too. I don't think there's any money one can make on the Amiga to sustain a living so if anyone have fun banging SAGA registers then it is as good as any other choice.

clebin 11 October 2021 16:01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki (Post 1510780)
Vampire maker is trying force standards which doesn't have real hardware existed already. There is 68060 with possibility of 105MHz (Warp 560/1260) and if ECS or AGA is not enough You can always target existed RTG solutions. This way software will work on some real Amiga configs and also on Vampire SAGA, which is just new forced standard of RTG.
I know Apollo anything is a contentious topic, but let's not go overboard. There is no Commodore and nobody can "force" a standard in the Amiga world. They're offering a product, like Picasso96 or CybergraphX, which may or may not win enough support to become a de facto standard.

Someone more familiar with SAGA would be able to say more about the advantages over RTG. As I understand it, it would be easier to progressively enhance a OCS/AGA game to add SAGA features, whereas RTG is entirely different system which shares no roots with the Amiga chipset at all, and therefore you might as well be coding for any platform.

At the moment, it doesn't look like it's going to get that uptake. But if the spec were finalised, documented and set in stone for a few years (an ASIC would help), you never know. But nobody's going to come to anybody's house and put a gun to their head forcing them to use SAGA. That's just more of the personality-driven arguments that surround this product.

S0ulA55a551n 11 October 2021 16:07
Quote:
Originally Posted by clebin (Post 1510804)
I know Apollo anything is a contentious topic, but let's not go overboard. There is no Commodore and nobody can "force" a standard in the Amiga world. They're offering a product, like Picasso96 or CybergraphX, which may or may not win enough support to become a de facto standard.

Someone more familiar with SAGA would be able to say more about the advantages over RTG. As I understand it, it would be easier to progressively enhance a OCS/AGA game to add SAGA features, whereas RTG is entirely different system which shares no roots with the Amiga chipset at all, and therefore you might as well be coding for any platform.

At the moment, it doesn't look like it's going to get that uptake. But if the spec were finalised, documented and set in stone for a few years (an ASIC would help), you never know. But nobody's going to come to anybody's house and put a gun to their head forcing them to use SAGA. That's just more of the personality-driven arguments that surround this product.
This would make sense. Making games that use ECS/AGA as a base and then have enhancements when run a SAGA machine.

roondar 11 October 2021 16:12
I'd say that a SAGA/Vampire simulator/emulator could be quite useful for those who want to code for those targets. Perhaps it might be a good thing for the Apollo team to consider making (whether as an add-on to existing emulators or as a new program). Similarly, it might be useful if they create a set specification for their HW so that it becomes easier for coders to use the features.

Anyway, I'm not a Vampire owner - these are just my 2 cents ;)

Don_Adan 11 October 2021 16:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar (Post 1510807)
I'd say that a SAGA/Vampire simulator/emulator could be quite useful for those who want to code for those targets. Perhaps it might be a good thing for the Apollo team to consider making (whether as an add-on to existing emulators or as a new program). Similarly, it might be useful if they create a set specification for their HW so that it becomes easier for coders to use the features.

Anyway, I'm not a Vampire owner - these are just my 2 cents ;)
Some specification is available, i dont know, if full.

http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=coding&tl=2

sean_sk 11 October 2021 22:51
If the Apollo Team are truly interested in getting programmers onboard to develop software that utilizes the features of the Vampire then perhaps they can offer a development kit to those interested in doing so. Developers can ask them about it rather than bugging Toni with emulation requests.

Int42 12 October 2021 06:18
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_sk (Post 1510851)
Developers can ask them about it rather than bugging Toni with emulation requests.
The Apollo Team can code an emulator like WinUAE? An Emulator is essential for develop for retro machines in my opinion. When Toni says "no" then the Vampire Development topic is dead and this great piece of hardware will only be a good accelerator but never more.

Minuous 12 October 2021 07:10
If anyone cared enough it probably would not be difficult to add it to WinUAE or another Amiga emulator. But personally I don't see that as desirable, after all it's an Amiga emulator and no Amiga has ever had these extra instructions, nor does any Amiga software use them of course. Because by definition any software that does would be Vampire software, not Amiga software.

Int42 12 October 2021 07:56
The Vampire is an alternative reality, we all can play with, in which Commodore stayed alive longer. Many other projects exists in which the Amiga world lives on today.

For me both technologies are interesting, the old Amiga500 OCS and the new ones. But both only when I can development on my PC for that. I don't wanna use ASM-One or software like that anymore.

Solo Kazuki 12 October 2021 08:03
Quote:
Originally Posted by clebin (Post 1510804)
I know Apollo anything is a contentious topic, but let's not go overboard. There is no Commodore and nobody can "force" a standard in the Amiga world. They're offering a product, like Picasso96 or CybergraphX, which may or may not win enough support to become a de facto standard.

Someone more familiar with SAGA would be able to say more about the advantages over RTG. As I understand it, it would be easier to progressively enhance a OCS/AGA game to add SAGA features, whereas RTG is entirely different system which shares no roots with the Amiga chipset at all, and therefore you might as well be coding for any platform.

At the moment, it doesn't look like it's going to get that uptake. But if the spec were finalised, documented and set in stone for a few years (an ASIC would help), you never know. But nobody's going to come to anybody's house and put a gun to their head forcing them to use SAGA. That's just more of the personality-driven arguments that surround this product.
In Your opinion is one logic mistake. You are mixing software and hardware. Whilst CyberGraphiX and Picasso96 are software standards with drivers to many cards, SAGA is artificial (and still in creation) hardware, which have drivers to mentioned above standards. And problem is that SAGA is "adding" some new standards, which have not usage with other graphic cards. So programming for CGX/P96 environment you can use it with any card with proper driver including SAGA, programming for SAGA is only useful for SAGA. That's why I was calling it "forcing standards". No one mention that he/they would use brute force (yet :laughing) from Your example. :p

So in simply words: He/they is/are trying to do new hardware standard without "stable" (i.e. not changing) hardware. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but Toni said it as one of main reasons why WinUAE doesn't support it because it might completely change in future.

kamelito 12 October 2021 09:40
If you’ve an OCS/ECS Amiga you can’t run AGA games same thing with Vampire, nothing new.
Well their new card for A500 will let you play AGA games and apps on your 500/1000/2000.

clebin 12 October 2021 10:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki (Post 1510880)
In Your opinion is one logic mistake. You are mixing software and hardware.
Hardware vs software doesn't really matter here - it's a product and a specification that people may or may not adopt.

Quote:
programming for SAGA is only useful for SAGA.
As I say, you could use SAGA to progressively enhance an AGA release with extra features like a pretty parallax background or whatever.

Writing for RTG makes your game useless for stock Amigas. Lots of people get upset about that too. Amiga users are world champions at getting upset about stuff.

The big point is it's also open-source. So there's nothing to stop SAGA support on Pistorm, or Buffee, Win/FS-UAE, ZZ9000 type cards, Minimig AGA, or anything else. At that point you couldn't say that SAGA is just for Vampire cards.

But that may never happen and the reason is your point about not having a stable base to work from. I don't know what the current state of SAGA is in that regard or what assurances are in place, but it's a big problem for SAGA. We're in complete agreement on that.


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