another leaking cap question, advice on whether to replace or not

systmcrsh · 16 September 2010, 19:32

first, hi... just registered, but i've lurked here off/on for a while.

i know this topic has been covered in other threads, but i think i may have a few questions that are unique... first a little background:

a long time ago i had an ntsc A600 fail due to leaking caps. the damage was severe so i decided to have a stab at replacing them myself. i've soldered before, but really struggled with getting all the old solder and caps off... i ended up pulling off traces and destroying my board beyond reasonable repair.

i ended up getting lucky and purchased a new old stock pal A600 from germany for pretty cheap. while i was waiting for it to arrive, a friend of mine local in my area gave me his spare ntsc 600 motherboard, which was very clean visually. when my 600 arrived from germany, i powered it up briefly to confirm that it worked and then boxed it away thinking i'll always have a failsafe backup. --- i use the 600 regularly for music production and have grown to depend on it.

anyways, for the past year i've been using my friend's spare motherboard with no problems. occasionally, i'll open it up to visually inspect it --- so far so good.

i found this service recently, and will likely send off my current motherboard for replacement soon: http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/...roducts_id=932

ever since my first 600 went bad, im slightly paranoid about it happening to me again. i was also told by someone that a rarely used machine was just as likely to leak as a heavily used machine. <--- is this true? that statement adds to my paranoia a bit, however doesn't make logical sense to me.

anyways, would you recommend that i also replace the caps on my new old-stock pal 600? i haven't opened it up to visually inspect it because i didn't want to break the warranty seal.

is there an opinion that an ntsc board is more likely to leak than a pal board (ie, caps sourced from different plants at manufacture, etc.) ?

is it true that an unused board will also eventually leak?

breaking the warranty seal of my pal 600 is not a big issue for me - i have no doubts that i eventually will anyway... i just don't want to preemptively dismantle everything and ship it off for replacement service if its not necessary (assuming it is currently in good shape and remains a boxed away backup for now).

thanx!

FOL · 16 September 2010, 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by systmcrsh

is it true that an unused board will also eventually leak?

There is no evidence either way.

Zetr0 · 16 September 2010, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOL

There is no evidence either way.

pretty much have to agree with that too =)

although I will have to say that if the board is not stored correctly (i.e in a hot and or humid environment) this will be detrimental to the life expectancy any or opperating expectancy of the capacitor.

FOL · 16 September 2010, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

although I will have to say that if the board is not stored correctly (i.e in a hot and or humid environment) this will be detrimental to the life expectancy any or opperating expectancy of the capacitor.

Ill have to agree with that too,

.

Offtopic:- Zetr0, did you get hold of matt after?

systmcrsh · 17 September 2010, 19:21

thanx will keep it in mind

8bitbubsy · 18 September 2010, 11:17

I don't think an unused mobo can make its cap start to leak, but I think that what Zetr0 said about storage environment is an important factor here...
There's is some elctrolytic liquid inside the capacitors, so if you store it in a very dry or hot room for a very long time, the caps might get in shock when you first turn on the system..
I don't really know for sure about this, but in my experience caps start to leak when you turn on the system after a very very long break with no use.

Loedown · 18 September 2010, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

I don't think an unused mobo can make its cap start to leak, but I think that what Zetr0 said about storage environment is an important factor here...
There's is some elctrolytic liquid inside the capacitors, so if you store it in a very dry or hot room for a very long time, the caps might get in shock when you first turn on the system..
I don't really know for sure about this, but in my experience caps start to leak when you turn on the system after a very very long break with no use.

Most electronic components fail at times of stress, switching on a device sends a surge through it, go look for inrush current.

Zetr0 · 18 September 2010, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOL

Ill have to agree with that too,

.

Offtopic:- Zetr0, did you get hold of matt after?

LOL.... alas my friend I ended up with honey dews from the wifie - litterally the moment I got off the phone lol...

btw... honeydews = "honey do this, honey do that" =)

I was hoping to catchup this week - but its been pretty damn busy this week - hope to catchup on monday with a bit of luck =)

@8bitbubsy

electrolytic capacitors are not "technically" sealed - this is so that they can "vent" the electrolytic in times of high-temp / pressure. A capacitor poorly stored will have a detrimental effect on its life-performace - in some extereme cases its possible to dry-out the capacitor before its even installed.

Another point to mention is not just heat, but cold can also equally effect the shelf life of a capacitor - if stored in such a manner here by there is a daily temperature swing of +25 in the day and -7 at night - I doubt that capacitor would last a year in such storage conditions - with constant expansion and contraction of the electrolytic I am pretty positive that it will damage the unit.

Internally speaking without a charge the oxide film on the anode of regular aluminium capacitors will deteriorate - this will lead to higher than rated leakage of current (hence mess up tight circuits) - in the case of SMD caps theres a common shelf-life of 3 years in -5c to +35c with humidity band of 45 - 85% - but this varience will vairy pending manufacturer and batches.

Unless the capacitor has been permanently damaged, applying voltage to the capacitor causes a reaction between the electrolyte and the aluminum foil, which can repair the deteriorated parts of the oxide film - thats if its not permanently damaged.

have a more of a read about capactitors here =)

rkauer · 19 September 2010, 06:37

Adding some thoughts to the discussion:

The seal of electrolytic capacitors is rubber (natural or synthetic) and it dries along the years (synthetic will last a bit more), and as my friend Keith pointed the seal is not perfect, regardless the material used.

In face of those facts, a capacitor never used will have its electrolytical material dried up at some point in future from the point where it was made.

Another fact is the aluminium capacitors used in the earlier SMD era where very badly made, saying kind words.

So an Amiga from that era will have their capacitors changed their expected values even if the computer where never had a single electron of current passed over the circuit in its whole life!

In resume: change the capacitors even if the board saw action once in a lifetime! Amiga boards are so valuable that they must be spared to the future.

'nuff said.

FOL · 19 September 2010, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkauer

In face of those facts, a capacitor never used will have its electrolytical material dried up at some point in future from the point where it was made.

That was the point, there are no facts either way. A study was carried out a few years ago and it revealed nothing, they still could'nt proove either way.

To be honest, the old saying still applies. "If it aint broke, then dont fix it".
Generally, you start messing with stuff that has nothing wrong with it, you can introduce faults.

Akiko · 19 September 2010, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOL

To be honest, the old saying still applies. "If it aint broke, then dont fix it".
Generally, you start messing with stuff that has nothing wrong with it, you can introduce faults.

I just had a look inside my A4000T and found what looks like two leaking capacitors

There doesn't seem to be any major problems at present, although have noticed when using the internal IDE the system always gurus once on cold boot, I'm not sure if this is related or not.

I guess is best to have serviced soon, should I be requesting the standard or tantalum ones?

8bitbubsy · 19 September 2010, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkauer

Adding some thoughts to the discussion:

The seal of electrolytic capacitors is rubber (natural or synthetic) and it dries along the years (synthetic will last a bit more), and as my friend Keith pointed the seal is not perfect, regardless the material used.

In face of those facts, a capacitor never used will have its electrolytical material dried up at some point in future from the point where it was made.

Another fact is the aluminium capacitors used in the earlier SMD era where very badly made, saying kind words.

So an Amiga from that era will have their capacitors changed their expected values even if the computer where never had a single electron of current passed over the circuit in its whole life!

In resume: change the capacitors even if the board saw action once in a lifetime! Amiga boards are so valuable that they must be spared to the future.

'nuff said.

Listen to this guy, he seems to know it.
The "If it ain't broken don't fix it" phrase sure is a smartie, but when we talk Amigas with the old SMD components, they are kind of broken already

FOL · 19 September 2010, 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiko

I guess is best to have serviced soon, should I be requesting the standard or tantalum ones?

Ouch now that is a case of broken.
The one here at amigakit does'nt suffer from that cap damage.

It does'nt matter what is said here (to many people with different experiences), I personally think if you have a higher rated temp and value on the caps then they will be fine. Either standard or tantalum.

Paul_s · 19 September 2010, 20:51

I'm just thankful that leaking caps are easier to clean up than the wretched barrell batteries!

FWIW I check mine in my CD32 every year. Visual check and do a test with a volt metre. 20 minute job.

FOL · 19 September 2010, 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul_s

I'm just thankful that leaking caps are easier to clean up than the wretched barrell batteries!

FWIW I check mine in my CD32 every year. Visual check and do a test with a volt metre. 20 minute job.

What about the 2 full size caps, they in the right way around,

.

Paul_s · 19 September 2010, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOL

What about the 2 full size caps, they in the right way around,

.

yep, done them last year

I've got 6 spares with the minimum order I had to make

8bitbubsy · 19 September 2010, 22:58

Using a multimeter to measure the voltage in the same rail where a cap is doesn't tell if the cap is healthy or not... You need to measure capacitance and use an ESR meter

systmcrsh · 20 September 2010, 08:00

thanx for the discussion... certainly a variety of opinions + quite a bit to consider.

i think soon ill be sending one of my motherboards for cap replacement... see how it goes, and if im happy with it, send the other. haven't decided which i'll send (first) yet, but prolly my ntsc board...

though i agree with "if it aint broke dont fix it", i am also of the mind "better safe than sorry". which one more accurately applies in reality, i dont know for sure... but i do know that i've already lost 1 board due to leaking caps. i guess because there isnt really a consensus of do or dont, i simply have to decide based on my personal experience.

has anyone used amigakit's cap replacement service, or have any thoughts about their service? or perhaps recommend a service in the NYC area?

someone mentioned standard or tantalum caps... should i request one over the other?

thanx!

rkauer · 21 September 2010, 03:41

We discussed the tantalum matter before, and my personal point of view is never use those capacitors!

FOL · 21 September 2010, 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkauer

We discussed the tantalum matter before, and my personal point of view is never use those capacitors!

I agree, never used tantalum. Normal are fine, just make sure they are rated at 105 degrees if possible.

16 September 2010, 19:32	#1
systmcrsh Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: nyc, usa Posts: 23	another leaking cap question, advice on whether to replace or not first, hi... just registered, but i've lurked here off/on for a while. i know this topic has been covered in other threads, but i think i may have a few questions that are unique... first a little background: a long time ago i had an ntsc A600 fail due to leaking caps. the damage was severe so i decided to have a stab at replacing them myself. i've soldered before, but really struggled with getting all the old solder and caps off... i ended up pulling off traces and destroying my board beyond reasonable repair. i ended up getting lucky and purchased a new old stock pal A600 from germany for pretty cheap. while i was waiting for it to arrive, a friend of mine local in my area gave me his spare ntsc 600 motherboard, which was very clean visually. when my 600 arrived from germany, i powered it up briefly to confirm that it worked and then boxed it away thinking i'll always have a failsafe backup. --- i use the 600 regularly for music production and have grown to depend on it. anyways, for the past year i've been using my friend's spare motherboard with no problems. occasionally, i'll open it up to visually inspect it --- so far so good. i found this service recently, and will likely send off my current motherboard for replacement soon: http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/...roducts_id=932 ever since my first 600 went bad, im slightly paranoid about it happening to me again. i was also told by someone that a rarely used machine was just as likely to leak as a heavily used machine. <--- is this true? that statement adds to my paranoia a bit, however doesn't make logical sense to me. anyways, would you recommend that i also replace the caps on my new old-stock pal 600? i haven't opened it up to visually inspect it because i didn't want to break the warranty seal. is there an opinion that an ntsc board is more likely to leak than a pal board (ie, caps sourced from different plants at manufacture, etc.) ? is it true that an unused board will also eventually leak? breaking the warranty seal of my pal 600 is not a big issue for me - i have no doubts that i eventually will anyway... i just don't want to preemptively dismantle everything and ship it off for replacement service if its not necessary (assuming it is currently in good shape and remains a boxed away backup for now). thanx!

18 September 2010, 11:17	#6
8bitbubsy ProTracker Nerd Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Norway Age: 23 Posts: 1,126	I don't think an unused mobo can make its cap start to leak, but I think that what Zetr0 said about storage environment is an important factor here... There's is some elctrolytic liquid inside the capacitors, so if you store it in a very dry or hot room for a very long time, the caps might get in shock when you first turn on the system.. I don't really know for sure about this, but in my experience caps start to leak when you turn on the system after a very very long break with no use. __________________ Amiga 4000 rev B [040 25MHz - 16MB fast RAM - 2MB chip RAM - kick 3.1 - Picasso IV] Amiga 2000 rev 4.5 [030 25MHz - 8MB fast RAM - 2MB chip RAM - kick 3.1] Amiga 1200 rev 2B [030 50MHz - 16MB fast RAM - 2MB chip RAM - kick 3.1]

19 September 2010, 06:37	#9
rkauer I hate potatos and shirts Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sao Leopoldo / Brazil Age: 47 Posts: 3,477	Adding some thoughts to the discussion: The seal of electrolytic capacitors is rubber (natural or synthetic) and it dries along the years (synthetic will last a bit more), and as my friend Keith pointed the seal is not perfect, regardless the material used. In face of those facts, a capacitor never used will have its electrolytical material dried up at some point in future from the point where it was made. Another fact is the aluminium capacitors used in the earlier SMD era where very badly made, saying kind words. So an Amiga from that era will have their capacitors changed their expected values even if the computer where never had a single electron of current passed over the circuit in its whole life! In resume: change the capacitors even if the board saw action once in a lifetime! Amiga boards are so valuable that they must be spared to the future. 'nuff said. __________________ Amigan since 1989 Known drunk since 1982 (don't know quite well, I was drunk) 13 Amigas at home Finally a Z3 one! I'll stick with 'Cachaça do Inter' for this week: Chivas gives headaches! :D

19 September 2010, 20:51	#14
Paul_s Stuck in 1985 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Amigaville Age: 35 Posts: 2,846	I'm just thankful that leaking caps are easier to clean up than the wretched barrell batteries! FWIW I check mine in my CD32 every year. Visual check and do a test with a volt metre. 20 minute job. __________________ Memotech MX512 with optional Kelly LeBrock barbie doll generator...

19 September 2010, 22:58	#17
8bitbubsy ProTracker Nerd Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Norway Age: 23 Posts: 1,126	Using a multimeter to measure the voltage in the same rail where a cap is doesn't tell if the cap is healthy or not... You need to measure capacitance and use an ESR meter __________________ Amiga 4000 rev B [040 25MHz - 16MB fast RAM - 2MB chip RAM - kick 3.1 - Picasso IV] Amiga 2000 rev 4.5 [030 25MHz - 8MB fast RAM - 2MB chip RAM - kick 3.1] Amiga 1200 rev 2B [030 50MHz - 16MB fast RAM - 2MB chip RAM - kick 3.1]

17 September 2010, 19:21	#5
systmcrsh Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: nyc, usa Posts: 23	thanx will keep it in mind

20 September 2010, 08:00	#18
systmcrsh Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: nyc, usa Posts: 23	thanx for the discussion... certainly a variety of opinions + quite a bit to consider. i think soon ill be sending one of my motherboards for cap replacement... see how it goes, and if im happy with it, send the other. haven't decided which i'll send (first) yet, but prolly my ntsc board... though i agree with "if it aint broke dont fix it", i am also of the mind "better safe than sorry". which one more accurately applies in reality, i dont know for sure... but i do know that i've already lost 1 board due to leaking caps. i guess because there isnt really a consensus of do or dont, i simply have to decide based on my personal experience. has anyone used amigakit's cap replacement service, or have any thoughts about their service? or perhaps recommend a service in the NYC area? someone mentioned standard or tantalum caps... should i request one over the other? thanx!

21 September 2010, 03:41	#19
rkauer I hate potatos and shirts Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sao Leopoldo / Brazil Age: 47 Posts: 3,477	We discussed the tantalum matter before, and my personal point of view is never use those capacitors! __________________ Amigan since 1989 Known drunk since 1982 (don't know quite well, I was drunk) 13 Amigas at home Finally a Z3 one! I'll stick with 'Cachaça do Inter' for this week: Chivas gives headaches! :D

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