30 gig hard drive problems on Amiga 1200 with 3.0 Roms

[Codetapper]

Recently my old 1.2 gig 3.5" drive decided to give up the ghost and randomly started bringing up errors. I went out and bought a 30 gig 2.5" drive (smallest you can get!) thinking I would be able to use that. (My Amiga is not towered, it's a plain A1200 with 32Mb fast mem and Blizzard 50Mhz 68030)

I installed SFS (v1.62 from memory) and FFS 45.1 (from OS3.5) into the RDB then used HDToolBox from my Workbench 3.0 install disk.

HDToolBox can only see the drive as 8 gig even though it correctly read the number of heads, cylinders and sectors. I thought perhaps the 3.0 Rom wasn't up to the task so softkicked the 3.1 Rom into my Blizzard 1230. I restarted HDToolbox and got it to read the info from the drive. Exactly the same result, it sees it as 8 gig only.

I was told by a friend to use PFS instead of SFS as that works perfectly on 3.0 roms - yet the HDToolBox equivalent program which is included is in fact the program from Aminet HDInstTool v6.8. I tried running that and when running the enquiry option it reported back complete rubbish - 8 gig drive like before but now the heads, cylinders and sectors were complete bollocks. Something like 1 head instead of 16, 130 cylinders instead of 65535 etc...

I have fully backed up my old drive and the new one is completely empty so I don't mind trying peoples suggestions to get the thing working.

I setup 4 x 2 gig partitions all using SFS. It created them OK but when it boots it can only see the first one. I installed NSDPatch and that is able to activate the third and 4th partition. The second one has disappeared, yet if you type "format dh1: name spare quick" it formats ok and the icon appears - until you reboot.

This is becoming really annoying now - I don't actually mind too much if I can't use the entire drive, I would have just filled up the rest of the drive with HD installs etc but I do not want to stuff it up now, then put all my assembler stuff back on and find it has corrupted my source from copying files past the 4 gig barrier.

Can anyone give me some advice on what I should do now? I'd like to stay with the 3.0 Roms and softkick 3.1 if possible rather than going to 3.1. But if this isn't going to work I'm open to all suggestions.

[rgen]

In any case you have to use a recent scsi.device (v43+) or IDEFix. If HDToolbox still reports 8 Gig the new OS3.5/3.9 HDToolbox has to be used. I have no problems connecting my PC 40Gig HD with OS3.9's scsi.device and fat95.

[thomas]

65535 is not the right number of cylinders. It is a limit that might cause the 8GB limit. Look into the data sheet of the hdd. If it still says 65536, look for the total number of blocks. This is the only number that counts. It must be somewhere around 60,000,000 for a 30gig hdd. The result of heads * sectors * cylinders must be equal to that number.

As told before you *must* patch scsi.device. Otherwise you *must not* use more then 4GB (FFS, SFS, PFS3) or 8GB (PFS3ds, SFS version 1.82) of the drive. Note: you can partition this area but if you format it / write to it you will *destroy* data below the limit.

Bye,
Thomas

[Codetapper]

The thing I find confusing is how exactly do you patch scsi.device to use a fixed version when the Amiga must boot off the very hard drive that it is loading firstly the Kickstart 3.1 Rom and then (I assume) NSDPatch or IDEFix or whatever program is hacking scsi.device to allow the other drives to appear?

Surely if I setup the Amiga as an 8 gig drive, load the patches and then run HDToolbox it will now say that it's a 30 gig drive (if everything went OK) and then when I setup the partitions it will say the entire drive has changed from an 8 gig to a 30 gig drive and I will lose everything setup so far (in terms of partitions?)

Or will this work because the first partition on the drive can be read properly which then loads the patches and THEN DH1..DH14 will appear? (15 partitions of 2 gig)

Incidentally I was quoting from memory yesterday, the actual drive says 16383 cylinders, 16 heads, 63 sectors on it. Multiplying those values gives 16,514,064.

The drive is an IBM Travelstar 40GN 30GB 4200 RPM Notebook IDE Hard Drive.

BTW do I need any actual files like scsi.device v43 from somewhere or those programs like NSDPatch/IDEFix patch the ones in ROM? And If I do need it can someone please upload it (unless it's on OS3.5 or WB3.1 in which case I can grab it)

Thanks for your help so far guys, I've never had a large HD in my Amiga so never had any of these problems...

[Frog]

To update your scsi.device you can use loadmodule ftp://de.aminet.net/pub/aminet/util/boot/LoadModule.lha or Blizkick ftp://de.aminet.net/pub/aminet/util/boot/BlizKick.lha
In Blizkick.Guide, it's explained how to extract the resident-module from ROM-update of OS3.5/3.9

NEVER USE old HDToolbox or old format command as it doesn't support NSD device, you'll lost your data above the 4GB !!

For example you can use Blizkick to softkicked 3.1, and use scsi.device, fastfilesystem...

BlizKick DEVS:Kickstarts/kick40068.A1200 EXTRESBUF=65536 MODULE FileSystem.Resource FastFileSystem scsi.device QUIET

Setpatch command from OS3.9 load itself DEVS:NSDPatch.cfg

You can see it easily, boot without startup, type 'info' drive above 4GB are not mount, then enter Setpatch, you'll see it checking and mounting all your partition.

So to end up, if i'm right the easier thing is to use Blizkick to softkick 3.1 + needed module from OS3.9 followed by Setpatch (NOROMUPDATE if you load all module from ROMUpdate with Blizkick) (NSDPatch.cfg must be in DEVS
then use HDToolbox from OS3.5/3.9 to setup your drive and format command from the same workbench. I can't remember if HDToolbox handle itself to format a partition.

[Frog]

i forget to answer to your question :

your drive above 4GB are mount with the NSDPatch. Try to boot without startup, type 'info' you'll only see partition before 4GB, then type "Setpatch' it'll mount all your partition as it load DEVS:NSDPatch (at least Setpatch from 3.9 can't remember for lower version)

if all is setup correctly, HDToolbox (from OS3.5/3.9) will recognize your HD as a 30 gig drive and you could add safely more partition. i repeat again don't use format command from OS3.0 it doesn't support NSD device !

btw i don't think you could setup 15 partition of 2gig. i heard somewhere that there's a link with the available memory. i can say bullshit

[rgen]

NSD patch and the 4 gigabyte problem shouldn't be mixed up! The old scsi.device (v40 and lower) uses only 32 bit addresses thus allowing only 4 gigabyte. The new scsi.devices (v43 and up) use 64 bit addresses thus allowing more than 4GB and they also include NSD already. NSD (New Style Device) defines a new set of commands, including 64bit ones, which programs/filesystems can use. The NSD patch patchs old devices pretending to programs they understand the new comands but it can not make 64 bit versions from 32 bit devices.

When you switch on your Amiga you only have the old scsi.device thus you must have your boot partition in the first 4GB range. Then you can load IDE-Fix which replaces scsi.device or kick in the new scsi.device which reboots your computer once and than you have the new device ready. I suggest that you use blizkick, too as it can load a new rom and the rom patches with only one reboot. Look at www.iki.fi/sintonen/sw.html he wrote blitzkick and also offers the exec44 patch.

The other partitions of your harddisk can be as big as you want but you shouldn't use FFS because there is no defragmentation programs that can access them. (And SFS is a lot better anyway )

[ant512]

Originally posted by Frog
btw i don't think you could setup 15 partition of 2gig. i heard somewhere that there's a link with the available memory. i can say bullshit

You can have as many partitions as you want, but there is a memory-imposed limit. Each parftition consumes a certain amount of RAM. At the very least, they take up 23K addressing space; they also consume an amount of memory dependent on both the size of a partition and its block size. Larger block sizes consume more memory, so a 1GB partition with 32K blocks requires several times more memory than the same partition with 512 byte blocks.

I vaguely recall that this is called the drive's "bitmap", and it is stored in memory at all times once the drive is mounted.

[thomas]

NSDPAtch does not give full 64bit support ! NSDPatch just wraps 64bit-commands to scsi-direct. With scsi.device V40 and scsi-direct you can handle up to 8GB, not more. You need a true NSD-cappable scsi.device (V43 and up) to handle all 30GB.

And of course after switching the Amiga on, you must boot from a partition that totaly resides below the 4GB limits. Because the patches to handle large hdds are added during boot.

For Kick 3.0 the best way to achieve 64bit-support is IDEfix97, because it is available. The scsi.device V43 patch was on the Amiga homepage but disappeared when OS3.5 came out and gives beta warnings when installed nowadays.

You still need a filesystem that is TD64 or NSD cappable. E.g. PFS3, SFS, FastFileSystem V43 (V40 patched with TD64-Patch) or FastFileSystem V44 (included with OS3.5).

Of course you can use HDToolbox os 3.0 to partition the drive. But you must not do a full-format. The format command does not use 64bit-commands. Use quick-format instead. Quick-Format is always sufficient even if it supported full-format.

[Interceptor]

let me make sense of this....

if you have a 30 gig drive, and you want to use it on a plain 3.0 amiga 1200 (i.e no bliz kicking capability) you must have the first partition as <= 4 gig regardless and you will only see other, larger partitions once you run IDEfix?

[Codetapper]

Thanks to everyone that replied to my question - I now have my 30 gig drive setup on my A1200 with 5 partitions all formatted as SFS. The speed improvement over FFS is amazing!

At some point I will make up a disk containing all the tools you need to accomplish setting up a large HD so if anybody does want it, send me a private message and I'll send it out.

Thanks again everyone!

[ant512]

Originally posted by Interceptor
if you have a 30 gig drive, and you want to use it on a plain 3.0 amiga 1200 (i.e no bliz kicking capability) you must have the first partition as <= 4 gig regardless and you will only see other, larger partitions once you run IDEfix?

Regardless of what system you have, if you are running FFS (not SFS or PFS) then you really should have a boot partition smaller than 2GB. Why you'd ever need a boot partition larger than 500MB I don't know...

[Syko]

500MB!!!! my A4000 has 120MB System partition, everything else is on the rest of the 1.7GB HD.

A big system partition slows down the boot proccess, and if anything goes wrong with it, takes an age to validate/verify in disksalve.

I would never recomend anything larger than 250MB for system, 1GB for programes and as many 1.9GB partitions as you need for data. If you've got loads of fonts for DTP, put them in your DTP directory, and use an assign...

Yes I know you can have larger partitions, but I've not seen any file that needs more than 1.9GB apart from DVD rips.... KISS keep it simple, stupid. Works for engineering and the band

[wizard66]

hi all
I have a Amiga 1200 kick3.1 and a hd 60 giga
I want to acces all 60gig ,but don't now how to do it.
This thread is about softkick and stuff.
Can anybody explain point by point how to do it

Do i first make a floppy ? hdtools 3.5/3.9 or do i first install windows 3.0 on 1 partition and then use hdtools,setpatch ect, to access the rest of the harddrive

I'm dutch so my writing is not so good ( sorry about that)

Please a explaination is very welcom here

[thomas]

If you have OS3.5/3.9 installed on your old HDD, create an emergency disk using the 3.5/3.9 installer, then replace the old hdd by the new one, boot from the emergency floppy and install the HDD using the HDToolbox icon on the floppy disk. Make a <2GB boot partition and partition the rest of the HDD as you like.

If you don't have OS3.5/3.9 already installed, you first need to create a boot floppy with the CD-ROM driver on it. You need access to the CD-ROM drive in order to install 3.5/3.9.

Easiest way would be to connect both drives to the Amiga so you could boot from your existing HDD. Still, if you don't yet have 3.5/3.9 installed, first create an emergency disk and boot from that before you start partitioning the large HDD.

With OS3.9 you can install the OS onto the empty partition at once. With OS3.5 you have to install 3.1 first (included on the CD). You won't want to install windows 3.0 on any partition.

If you don't own OS3.5 or 3.9, you need other software as mentioned above. First create a <2GB boot partition on the new HDD to install the system on and leave the rest for later. Then install the OS and the needed patches and finally partition the rest of the HDD.

*Never* use full format on the HDD, *always* use quick.

*Never* use programs like ReOrg, DiskSalv, AmibackTools, QuarterbackTools, DynamiCache, ShapeShifter, PC-Task, PCx on partitions beyond or overlapping the 4GB border.

[wizard66]

Originally Posted by thomas

If you have OS3.5/3.9 installed on your old HDD, create an emergency disk using the 3.5/3.9 installer, then replace the old hdd by the new one, boot from the emergency floppy and install the HDD using the HDToolbox icon on the floppy disk. Make a <2GB boot partition and partition the rest of the HDD as you like.

If you don't have OS3.5/3.9 already installed, you first need to create a boot floppy with the CD-ROM driver on it. You need access to the CD-ROM drive in order to install 3.5/3.9.

Easiest way would be to connect both drives to the Amiga so you could boot from your existing HDD. Still, if you don't yet have 3.5/3.9 installed, first create an emergency disk and boot from that before you start partitioning the large HDD.

With OS3.9 you can install the OS onto the empty partition at once. With OS3.5 you have to install 3.1 first (included on the CD). You won't want to install windows 3.0 on any partition.

If you don't own OS3.5 or 3.9, you need other software as mentioned above. First create a <2GB boot partition on the new HDD to install the system on and leave the rest for later. Then install the OS and the needed patches and finally partition the rest of the HDD.

*Never* use full format on the HDD, *always* use quick.

*Never* use programs like ReOrg, DiskSalv, AmibackTools, QuarterbackTools, DynamiCache, ShapeShifter, PC-Task, PCx on partitions beyond or overlapping the 4GB border.

I have 3.9 installt but have no cd , I buy the 1200 whitout cd so I cant make a emergency disk
I't is the easy to do white a emergency disk
so i Think i need that disk

[thomas]

You are not allowed to use OS3.9 if you don't own the CD. Well, mainly the previous owner did the illegal action as he sold the installed HDD and the CD seperately creating two working copies from one license. However, you won't get support and are not able to update without the CD.

You could connect both HDDs, partition the new drive, copy all files over and remove the old disk (if you don't want to keep it). There is no other way to handle AmigaOS without original disks (OS3.9 CD or OS3.1 floppies). And you won't be able to recover if you ever suffer a HDD failure.

[wizard66]

Originally Posted by thomas

You are not allowed to use OS3.9 if you don't own the CD. Well, mainly the previous owner did the illegal action as he sold the installed HDD and the CD seperately creating two working copies from one license. However, you won't get support and are not able to update without the CD.

You could connect both HDDs, partition the new drive, copy all files over and remove the old disk (if you don't want to keep it). There is no other way to handle AmigaOS without original disks (OS3.9 CD or OS3.1 floppies). And you won't be able to recover if you ever suffer a HDD failure.

Today I buy me a original version off Amiga OS3.9 cost €39,95
I have made a emergency disk reboot and want to startup hdtoolbox from the emergency disk, but I get a error SYS:hdtoolbox #80000004.

so then a used install disk v3.0 to make a partition and format it.
Then i installt os3.9 on that partition en used hdtoolbox from dho (os3.9)
I make all de partitions there incl. dh0 again.
So reboot no OS (af course).
Reboot emergency disk and instalt os3.9 again on dh0:
Reboot and workbench loades up fine, then i want to format hd1 and dh2 partitions i get the message seek failure

I Can't use hdtoolbox from the emergency disk Dont no why !!!

[wizard66]

Update


Fixed it

I have my 60 giga harddrive running on the 1200..

used a 2.5. > 3.5 convertor and formated the hd on Amigaforever on the pc.
Then a installed Os3.9 from cd on the A1200.
Runs like a charm now At last...
I have now 3 partitions dh0: FFS 1giga, DH1: SFS 1giga and DH2: SFS 53,9 giga

Yeaaayy I Like it, Thanks all for helping

[Syko]

Post exactly what you did, and any one else in the same fix can then do it on their system, what goes around, comes around

Glad your're up and running, have fun!

[Ebster]

Hi there,


i am about to buy a 2,5" 20-40 gb hd, not because i need that much space, but because there are no smaller new ones available.
i actually need about 5gb.

hardware about the same as codetapper´s:
a1200
kick 3.0
wb 3.0
blizzard 1230
no extra controller, cd-rom or so

i am absolutely new to stuff like blizkick, devs etc. (but no problem with file transfer pc->amiga) and looking all over the net for three nights now havn´t made things become clearer.


so starting on from just having built the blank hd in the a1200.......

can somebody pleeeeaaaase post a step by step how-to, setting this thing up, step by step, the easiest way with the best result?

(somehow idiot-safe, not like: you can do like this or that, and i prefer 3rd which has again several contras; i appreciate that amount of knowledge but for me as a "normal" user, it makes me mad).

which files do i need to make it work? which hd-utilities for later use, like defragmentation or so?

anyway, thanks a lot!

...ffs...info 38.2 won´t spatch...sfs...softkick...blizkick and/or idefix...

[Korodny]

Originally Posted by Ebster

can somebody pleeeeaaaase post a step by step how-to, setting this thing up, step by step, the easiest way with the best result?

To use big HDs, you need to patch scsi.device (the IDE driver) and use a new filesystem. Here's what you need:

1. AmigaOS 3.x disks
2. IDEFix97 (download here)
3. SFS (download here)

Boot from the OS3 'Install' disk, run HDToolbox. Create just one partition (your boot partition) which absolutely needs to be smaller than 4GB - about 100 MB should be sufficient (some would say "way to much") anyway.

Do not create any other partitions yet.

Now install OS3 to that partition.

Install IDEFix97 to that partition.

Reboot.

Now you need to install the new filesystem to your HD's 'Rigid Disk Block' (imagine this as the HD's 'boot block'), this is somewhat complicated.

Read the SFS manual.

Read the SFS manual once more.

Start HDToolbox and activate "Advanced options".

Some new buttons appear, click on "Add/Change".

(this is where my memory gets shady, unfortunately - let's hope others are able to contribute)

The window that comes up now lets you add a new filesystem to the disk's RDB. Read the SFS manual again - it will explain what has to be entered in the "MaxTranfer" etc. fields.

The rest of the information is 'reliable' again.

Once you have added the new filesystem to the RDB and you're back in HDToolbox's main window, create the other partitions. HDToolbox will display completely wrong partition sizes (IIRC it will start at '0' again if a partition gets bigger than 4GB), but that's just a cosmetical problem.

As you have 'advanced options' enabled, there's a button that lets you select the filesystem for all of the partitions - make sure that all the partitions you are creating use "SFS" as their filesystem.

Make sure that you did not change any of the settings for your original partition (the boot partition).

Now you leave HDToolbox again (click 'Save', 'Yes I'm Sure' blah blah several times).

Reboot.

Format your new partitions with quick format (never ever use anything else than 'quick format to format your partitions -the format command does not support big HDs properly).

You're done. (Actually, you could now switch the boot partition's FS from FFS to SFS too, but let's deal with that in another posting )

[Jope]

The 3.0 hdtoolbox is BROKEN! Use hdinsttools instead!

[Ebster]

thank you soooo much!


tomorrow i´ll buy that hd. shouldn´t be a problem anymore. i always asked myself, if the boot partition could stay that way first installed and at which point you start partitioning and formatting. that´s clear now! the most interesting link i found was this one http://siliconsonic.de/t/bin/howto/etd64.htm - and it´s all about ffs. sfs should be better. still some questions:


can i use hdtoolbox 3.1 for installing wb3.0? what is broken in hdtb3.0? or has it some advantage using that hdinsttools?

and what is your advised maximum (and/or possible) partition size with sfs kick3.0 and wb3.0 to use?

again thanks a lot!!!

[Jope]

Don't use pre 3.9 hdtoolbox at all.

Old HDTB versions can't handle large drives properly and sometimes it manages to create overlapping partitions!

Just stay well clear, or use it only for disks < 4GB and for one partition only. :-)

[Korodny]

Originally Posted by Ebster

thank you soooo much!

You're welcome

can i use hdtoolbox 3.1 for installing wb3.0? what is broken in hdtb3.0? or has it some advantage using that hdinsttools?

Well, I'm pretty sure that HDToolBox can handle partitions bigger than 4 GB, it just displays completely stupid partition sizes. But Jope seems to be pretty sure aswell, so you better use HDInsttools just to be on the safe side.

But do not use several different HD tools - always stay with the one that you used first. If you choose to use HDInsttools, use it for everything you do to your HD.

and what is your advised maximum (and/or possible) partition size with sfs kick3.0 and wb3.0 to use?

With that setup there's no real limit (I think it's around 128 'Terra'bytes or something). Validating an invalid partition requires memory (the bigger the partition, the more memory you need), but with SFS (which never needs to validate) you don't need to worry about this.

[Ebster]

ok folks, i´m about to bug out...

how do i add the sfs? i´ve did everything the way described above, until i have to use hdinsttools/hdtoolbox3.0 to make the sfs partitions, but i am not able to add the file system. when i enter the required identifier etc., change partition and safe, and then go to the change partition display later, the values are set to custom default again. device disappeared from the wb, and sfs salv also finds nothing. i know this is a hard issue to answer (even for me to explain) but please take a guess on what went wrong. installed idefix97 on the hd, without that cd search thing, copied sfs to l: and entered the values to hdtb/hdinsttools - not mixing them up, but after several reformats each try with one of those.

[thomas]

In HDToolbox, on the "partition drive" page, there are two buttons on the right side: one is labelled "Add/Update" and the other is "Change...". First you have to go to "Add/Update". There is a list of all installed filesystem programs. Click on Add, choose SFS from where you copied it and enter the identifier 0x53645300. Then click on Ok. Now you can go to "Change..." and set the new identifier for the partition, too. "Add/Update" is for all partitions, "Change" has to be done once for each partition.

And believe me, it would help you a lot if you'd read the documentation which comes with the programs you try to install. AFAIK SFS has detailed instructions on how to install it.

[Jope]

Originally Posted by Korodny

Well, I'm pretty sure that HDToolBox can handle partitions bigger than 4 GB, it just displays completely stupid partition sizes. But Jope seems to be pretty sure aswell, so you better use HDInsttools just to be on the safe side.

The 3.1 HDTB is pretty safe, I guess, the 3.0 one has problems. The error in calculating the bigger partition sizes is only a visual problem, but the overlapping partition problem is something you don't want to encounter, ever.

But do not use several different HD tools - always stay with the one that you used first. If you choose to use HDInsttools, use it for everything you do to your HD.

That's a pretty good rule of thumb.. I personally use three different tools interchangeably, but sticking to one single tool is what I'd also recommend for beginners.

Saves you a lot of hassle if you only use one, there's not as much chance of things going wrong. (and I recommend HDInstTools)

[Ebster]

i know, i´m getting on your nerves, but i read sfs manual more than once and just now(10 pm till 7h am) i did again what you wrote, but after that sfs salv(i don´t have any other method to check right know) gives me the information, that this partition is (german "nicht angemeldet") - i guess, that means not mounted..

[Ebster]

the sfs instruction says create a mountlist OR follow below. i followed below.

do i HAVE TO create that list? Where shall it be put to? startup-sequence?? i´m really confused, because i followed the other instructions and on workbench always only the boot partition is displayed, the other is only visible in hd tool box or sfs salv, with no filesystem and status: not registered (i looked in a dictionary, mounted seems to be something else).

can someone help?

[Ebster]

The solution is to use HDToolBox3.1, in 3.0 and in HDInstallTools you CANNOT click the sfs\00 to change after you have added it. you have to enter the identifier under custom file system and this somehow does not work. with 3.1 after adding it is listet to be clicked - and tatatataaaah!! it works! forget all my other questions. and thanks for your patience!


peace

[Ebster]

Hi there,


a new problem appeared: after i´m able to make sfsformatted partitions, i get wrong sizes displayed, opening them under windows - and several blockid errors when trying to work on the partitions. i tried all the sfs advised mask values - did not work. when i changed sfs blocksize to 1024 i could copy my whole workbench on that sfs partition without errors. but still wrong size of that partition displayed.

what might be the mistake?

[Ebster]

just to keep you informed, i had v1.227 from aminet, 1.230 does not show that problem. i just found it: http://home.wtal.de/js/now i can sleep well again...