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Old 14 March 2018, 09:07   #21
Jeff_HxC2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utri007 View Post
This leads to very annoying feature of amiga scene. Everything should be free and if any one ask something from anything he is a villain.

Price of HxC firmware is not a worth of mention for adult. It is less than 10€.

HxC has also a preferences menu wich FlashFloppy lacks. Other vice they are quite comparable. So in tehnical/support point of view HxC is little better.

What anoyns me a LOT is HxC website/guides. Those are total mess, when FlashFloppy has nice and clean wiki.
Last day i got a guy complaining about the HxC firmware price. After some google searches it appears to be a commercial seller. He sell Mercedes cars during his work days . This is the actual state of the scene.

For the HxC Gotek guide, all is there :

http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewt...hp?f=33&t=1683

And there :

http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_d...a_firmware.zip

Nothing else is needed.

Last edited by Jeff_HxC2001; 14 March 2018 at 10:35.
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Old 14 March 2018, 10:02   #22
Jeff_HxC2001
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Originally Posted by Akira View Post
No dude, that's not the problem, you should definitely visit.

I really don't understand why you get so salty though, it's unbecoming, it just doesn't help the fantastic work you put on HxC.
Just relax, and do what you do best, you're great at it. As for the users, we value all development of this kind. I hope you see my message not as an attack, rather some advice, and appreciation for the work time you put in HxC dev.
You don't understand ?
Then please try to develop something during some years. You will probably understand when some opportunistic guys will take your work, your product name and use them on theirs website/"wiki" to promote/push theirs wheelbarrows and compete with you with your own stuffs.
And finally you will maybe found that i wasn't so "pissy" regarding the situation.

What is unbecoming is how this firmware is promoted and how it is "sold".
I now got some support requests with peoples thinking to have the HxC firmware but they haven't it... Commercially and technically this is a counterfeit.
All was done to make this mix-up.

Sorry for being "pissy" again and probably being a bad commercial/promoter but i don't like being hypocritical, so i tend to write what thought...

Last edited by Jeff_HxC2001; 14 March 2018 at 10:33.
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Old 14 March 2018, 12:59   #23
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Also, and correct me if I am mistaken Jeff, but I think I read comments from Jeff and Lethorak that HxC was initially developed for Lethorak drives to be completely stable 100% as it is used in some pretty tight and secure places where reliability is not an option. The fact that we can install it on lowly GoTek drives (and i mean lowly more as a cheaper less secure device) is a bonus.

I purchased Hxc for my first GoTek installed on my TI-99/4a (Yes Jeff, I'm the same guy casually trying to get you to support TI-99/4a DSK images in HxC natively - LOL) and went with HxC before the purchasing process changed. I can't understand french so for my Amiga GoTek, I went with flashfloppy.

But either way, I think folks need to understand that they are fundamentally different products that adhere to different standards even if they support 90% of the same features. ford Pinto from the 1970s has many of the same features as a militarized HumVee like 4 tires, gas, break, can get you from point a to point b, almost the same, but you wouldn't want to enter a warzone in that pinto. Even if the same company developed both vehicles.

It sucks to see your stuff stolen and competing with your bottom line Jeff. Really does. But also to clarify, you're not referencing flash floppy with that statement correct? I mean, FF is a "fork" of the open source which is the entire purpose of having some of the code open source correct? You were complaining about some guy on the internet trying to pirate or get for free HxC to sell his drives, am I correct in understanding that?
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Old 14 March 2018, 16:50   #24
Keir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus View Post
It sucks to see your stuff stolen and competing with your bottom line Jeff. Really does. But also to clarify, you're not referencing flash floppy with that statement correct? I mean, FF is a "fork" of the open source which is the entire purpose of having some of the code open source correct? You were complaining about some guy on the internet trying to pirate or get for free HxC to sell his drives, am I correct in understanding that?
To clarify, FlashFloppy is not a fork of HxC, it is a from-scratch implementation, using some third-party libraries for obvious stuff like FatFS and USB.

How could FlashFloppy fork HxC, when the HxC firmware is closed source

Nor is FlashFloppy project distributing any HxC open-source tools, forked or otherwise. FlashFloppy merely supports:
1. The HFE and HFEv3 image formats
2. The HxC-Autoboot-file-selector's Flash-access protocol
In both cases using my own code implemented from published documents (eg. http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_d...ile_format.pdf) and/or reverse engineered from open-source code.

I will also note that FlashFloppy can be used without (1) and (2): no need to use HFE images on most systems (direct native image support for most systems); and no need to use Autoboot file selector (direct navigation of images on the Gotek, especially if an LCD/OLED display is fitted).
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Old 14 March 2018, 17:20   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaffer View Post
To clarify, FlashFloppy is not a fork of HxC, it is a from-scratch implementation, using some third-party libraries for obvious stuff like FatFS and USB.

How could FlashFloppy fork HxC, when the HxC firmware is closed source

Nor is FlashFloppy project distributing any HxC open-source tools, forked or otherwise. FlashFloppy merely supports:
1. The HFE and HFEv3 image formats
2. The HxC-Autoboot-file-selector's Flash-access protocol
In both cases using my own code implemented from published documents (eg. http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_d...ile_format.pdf) and/or reverse engineered from open-source code.

I will also note that FlashFloppy can be used without (1) and (2): no need to use HFE images on most systems (direct native image support for most systems); and no need to use Autoboot file selector (direct navigation of images on the Gotek, especially if an LCD/OLED display is fitted).
Thank you for clarifying that. It's why I asked. Better to ask than live with disinformation.
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Old 14 March 2018, 17:29   #26
Akira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus View Post
But also to clarify, you're not referencing flash floppy with that statement correct? I mean, FF is a "fork" of the open source which is the entire purpose of having some of the code open source correct?
Oh he very much refers to FlashFloppy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001 View Post
You don't understand ?
Then please try to develop something during some years. You will probably understand when some opportunistic guys will take your work, your product name and use them on theirs website/"wiki" to promote/push theirs wheelbarrows and compete with you with your own stuffs.
I have always shown support for HxC and recommended it to everyone that asks even after FlashFloppy became available, as you can see above and in past posts. I always tried to de-escalate your attacks towards FF with humor and trying to help you relax and have a healthier attitude, for your and everyone's sake, but you are clearly set in spreading bile around regarding this matter as clearly shown above.

Given that answer, let's take the gloves off now: to be fair, you have always responded badly to people questioning anything regarding HxC, asking for features or reporting problems, even before FlashFloppy existed.
In every single thread where anyone would mention HxC you would pop up and "set the record straight", like if you were the 3.5" floppy disk emulation politburo. Even if "setting the record straight" meant spreading lies like "FlashFloppy uses the HxC name and code, it's stolen!", like you did above, and I in a friendly way, pointed at in hopes of a better answer which never came.

Claiming that FlashFloppy is a "counterfeit" is just the cherry on top of a very nasty cake icing that none of us should eat.

If this was a real case of "someone is passing off their firmware as HxC" (one mention of FF being "compatible with HxC ecosystem" is HARDLY "being sold off as HxC". Also: it's not sold) "and stole my work" (unless kaffer has gone to your house and ransacked your computer, I have no idea what you are talking about) I'd be very concerned and understand you and support you, but this is clearly not the case.

I usually give the little money I have for this hobby out to support developers, whether there are free alternatives or they release their stuff for free, because that's how you support active developers, but this is why I said "it's unbecoming". The one mostly affected by what you say is yourself, and as a clearly intelligent man, my "confusion" comes from thinking you'd know better than doing what you are doing. Nothing wrong with being honest, as you can see I am a very blunt man myself, but there's million of things wrong with making false accusations.

It is clear that many of us love and appreciate the work you have put in HxC over the years, but that doesn't and shouldn't make you untouchable. By spreading lies and attacking someone else who makes something that overlaps with what you make, regardless of your commercial interest in it, you become a destroyer rather than the creator you ought to be, and as I said I still hope that you come to realize this and stop with this attitude, and also realize that this post I am making is no attack, rather, an intervention of sorts, out of appreciation for the work put in HxC over the years.
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Old 14 March 2018, 18:13   #27
Jeff_HxC2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaffer View Post
To clarify, FlashFloppy is not a fork of HxC, it is a from-scratch implementation, using some third-party libraries for obvious stuff like FatFS and USB.

How could FlashFloppy fork HxC, when the HxC firmware is closed source

Nor is FlashFloppy project distributing any HxC open-source tools, forked or otherwise.
Really ? So what are these download links on your wiki directly pointing to the hxc2000.com domain ?

https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy/wiki/Initial-Setup

And do you really think i have forgotten the hxc file selector fork ? :

https://github.com/keirf/Old_FF_FS

Last edited by Jeff_HxC2001; 16 March 2018 at 09:19.
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Old 14 March 2018, 18:16   #28
Jeff_HxC2001
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Originally Posted by Akira View Post

Claiming that FlashFloppy is a "counterfeit" is just the cherry on top of a very nasty cake icing that none of us should eat.
When someone sell a Gotek as "HxC Gotek" and the buyer get a FF Gotek instead, i am sorry to say that this is a counterfeit...

Last edited by Jeff_HxC2001; 14 March 2018 at 18:49.
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Old 14 March 2018, 18:23   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001 View Post
When someone sell a Gotek as "HxC Gotek" and the buyer get a FF Gotek instead, i am sorry to say that is a counterfeit...
I'm sure that kaffer cannot be responsible for that since he never sold the devices afaik. We all know that there are many unscrupulous Amiga resellers out there and unfortunately it is hard to do anything about. At least protecting your firmware as you did meant that they could not steal your software.
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Old 14 March 2018, 18:28   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001 View Post
When someone sell a Gotek as "HxC Gotek" and the buyer get a FF Gotek instead, i am sorry to say that is a counterfeit...
That is not kaffer's fault, but the eBay seller's fault. Report it to eBay for misusing your brand.
A seller mislabeling what they sell does not make FlashFloppy a counterfeit. They could as well use Cortex and sell it as HxC. There were LOTS of those too, I remember well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001 View Post
And do you really think i have forgotten the hxc file selector fork ? :
Why would you open source something that then you chastise people for forking? Please explain.
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Old 14 March 2018, 18:30   #31
Jeff_HxC2001
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Originally Posted by demolition View Post
I'm sure that kaffer cannot be responsible for that since he never sold the devices afaik. We all know that there are many unscrupulous Amiga resellers out there and unfortunately it is hard to do anything about. At least protecting your firmware as you did meant that they could not steal your software.
On the contrary, this is easy : Make something different and really new. A different file selector, different config file. Something different, not a thing trying to mimic the original firmware.
Here HFE file formats (v1 & v3!) + hxc direct access protocol and even the hxc config file are used in flashfloppy...

this make these scams easy to do, and most user don't even see that there is a problem...

Last edited by Jeff_HxC2001; 14 March 2018 at 18:49.
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Old 14 March 2018, 19:02   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001 View Post
On the contrary, this is easy : Make something different and really new. A different file selector, different config file. Something different, not a thing trying to mimic the original firmware.
Here HFE file formats (v1 & v3!) + hxc direct access protocol and even the hxc config file are used in flashfloppy...

this make these scams easy to do, and most user don't even see that there is a problem...
Why would I when there is perfectly good open source software out there to do those jobs. As many have said to you in the past, that is how open source is supposed to work.

That said maybe I will build a better Amiga file selector, in due course. I'm nearly at v1.0 on the firmware, most users on most platforms are happy. A new project would be nice.
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Old 16 March 2018, 09:15   #33
Jeff_HxC2001
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Originally Posted by kaffer View Post
Why would I when there is perfectly good open source software out there to do those jobs. As many have said to you in the past, that is how open source is supposed to work.
I was talking about the closed source firmware.
Anyway yes i already read this argument and i still think that there is no point with the open source here.
And the semantic of some words used in your previous post tend to confirm me it :

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaffer View Post
...
FlashFloppy merely supports:
1. The HFE and HFEv3 image formats
2. The HxC-Autoboot-file-selector's Flash-access protocol
In both cases using my own code implemented from published documents
(eg. http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_d...ile_format.pdf)
and/or reverse engineered from open-source code.
...
Reverse engineering is not specific to the open source. You can do this on the binaries (with a disassembler or debugger) and/or by sniffing the floppy bus to get the protocol.
Since you are more in "reverse engineering" mode than in "open source" spirit toward the hxc project, i am sure that closed source stuff would not have stopped you to make the same thing. The open source part just make the work easier for you...
This is a more general property intellectual problem here. Apparently we are not in a "clean room design" method here.

Regarding the pdf document i wasn't aware that any published specifications, datasheet, user manual or any other type of document available on the internet could be used to clone a product without any restriction.

Last edited by Jeff_HxC2001; 16 March 2018 at 09:33.
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Old 16 March 2018, 10:30   #34
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Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001 View Post
Reverse engineering is not specific to the open source. You can do this on the binaries (with a disassembler or debugger) and/or by sniffing the floppy bus to get the protocol.
Since you are more in "reverse engineering" mode than in "open source" spirit toward the hxc project, i am sure that closed source stuff would not have stopped you to make the same thing. The open source part just make the work easier for you...
This is a more general property intellectual problem here. Apparently we are not in a "clean room design" method here.

Regarding the pdf document i wasn't aware that any published specifications, datasheet, user manual or any other type of document available on the internet could be used to clone a product without any restriction.
What I mean is that you are encouraging interoperability with HxC tools by publishing the documents, else why on earth would you bother to produce and publish them? But either way, documented or not, other projects are free to implement existing protocols and file formats.
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Old 21 March 2018, 12:21   #35
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@Akira

I don't know if it's really your place to flame jeff , perhaps attitude is relative to the situation, he's built something from scratch and put years into it. People have unreasonable expectations, often enough they want others to resolve a problem immediately as they've paid, so their expectations go up as a consumer. However, it's unrealistic as the nature of his work is not basic , it's a high skill area which others do not comprehend most of the time and therefore a lot of stress and shitty attitudes do happen its natural, expect it, what kind of world do you think we live in? As for his firmware, it's natural for things not to work 100% and I am sure jeff's intentions are good. He doesn't need to talk nice to people for the sake of talking nice to people, as we know all humans are variable there and that's not a requirement for anyone, there's a difference between a persons attitude and arrogance and someone damn right flaming someone for the sake of it. Simply put we choose to be nice we don't have to be, but we shouldn't be nasty for no reason of course. And If someone is a dick he has a right to reply in public, even if ignoring sometimes is the best recourse. Regardless of how he comes across in the forums and how you think it may damage his image this is a matter of your own perspective AND this is his business, if he takes on losses from that manner of speaking that's his problem, not yours, unless you are a hxc retailer I wouldn't make a comment regarding HIS personal business personally.


Anyhow regarding the disagreements over HFE,
@Kaffer, @jeff

I see jeff's argument, and I see kaffers, I mean publishing the PDF regarding the file header etc appears to be documentation for others to refer to in which case naturally support is intended, however, this may have been originally intended towards hxc project and not their own projects that serve no interest of the hxc project, at the time I don't think jeff expected another floppy emulation, let alone support his file format.

I see kaffers point that it's readily available so you can assume that if I build support for such file type then It's acceptable, in very much the way that both of you support ADF and neither developed that file format yourselves (as far as i know). How far do we take supporting formats before intellectual property is infringed, that a grey area or not? I mean look at Photoshop it supports a ton of image formats, you can say the same about many image editing tools, it's a widely accepted practice to import other image formats as they crop out over the years from bmp, gif, jpeg, png and so on... In the case of amiga floppy emulation the data is an amiga game, it's format is jeff's personal interpretation of the game and flashfloppy can read jeff's interpretation based on jeff's documentation, it's all fair in some respect as flashfloppy claims to be code from scratch and that can be verified by his open source approach, so imo as long as the main objective of flashfloppy wasn't to damage jeff personally whereby there's evidence to suggest it was intended and there's no legal issue with hfe support I'd probably conclude the argument is simply heated for no reason.

As for my experience with both Jeff and Kaffer.

I respect both of your work, enjoy using both hxc and flash floppy and can't imagine my goteks without either. I've had a great experience with Jeff in pm which people like Akira are unaware of. And I have yet to really find the time to chat about kaffers product with him but hopefully one day we can chat.

Last edited by solidcore; 21 March 2018 at 14:33.
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Old 12 August 2018, 14:24   #36
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I have to say that I only have good experiences with Jeff and HXC firmware. First of all, buying and flashing my 5 Gotek drives was a painless action. Also, he has been very active in the Gotek HXC thread and he listens to us and have implemented and improving his firmware as we have posted about missing features or bugs. I have nothing but good things to say about him and his firmware.

With regards to Flash Floppy, I have not tried it yet. But I think it's a good thing that there are free options aswell. The more the merrier. I think this will also make Jeff wanna stay one step ahead with his firmware VS free options to justify it not being free.
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Old 12 August 2018, 22:38   #37
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I have only tried Cortex and HxC. My main problem with Gotek is that they're not made for Amigas; buttons, USB port and display are covered.

I like the idea of assigning favorites, but the Cortex 00.adf is too slow. I offered to optimize it, but...

So my favorite is HxC (with text display). (Side note that on Kickstarter A1200 cases, the slot marked on the front is just a mark and the A1200 keyboard will hit the display so best to put it elsewhere unless you want to dremel the keyboard also. You can avoid cutting anything with a DF1 solution+DF0-switch.)
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