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Old 13 July 2017, 16:39   #201
Akira
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Why is the 3D anim scene right before that so different on the two?
I had not noticed! :O
I Am thinking one is the compoversion, and one isn't?
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Old 13 July 2017, 16:44   #202
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Maybe one is using RTG?

Anyways, it begs the question - what else is different?
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Old 13 July 2017, 17:18   #203
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Maybe one is using RTG?
And then one version uses different textures having higher resolutions? Not plausible.
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Anyways, it begs the question - what else is different?
I bet those Apollo Team guys played some dirty tricks, made some better looking hi-res textures and sped up the code to make the Vampire look better in comparison! Is this what you are trying to say? :
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Old 13 July 2017, 17:27   #204
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I also noticed the animation part where the female character is standing outside - One version has her in a traditional "T" pose with no hair blowing in the wind, the other has her arms in a different pose with hair blowing in the breeze. So the two demos are slightly different in that area too. not sure why myself,. Maybe a hint is in the credits. I think I noticed they were also slightly different.
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Old 13 July 2017, 17:30   #205
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I bet those Apollo Team guys played some dirty tricks, made some better looking hi-res textures and sped up the code to make the Vampire look better in comparison! Is this what you are trying to say? :
Are you insinuating something?
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Old 13 July 2017, 17:31   #206
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It only seems like that scene is different, I am betting the Amiga capture is the partyversion.
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Maybe a hint is in the credits. I think I noticed they were also slightly different.
You are right. Amiga-run demo says "a contribution to Revision 2012" while the Apollo one says "winner of the compo at Revision 2012".
So, clearly, that scene was heavily revamped in a post-party version.

You guys can remove your tinfoil hats now
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Old 13 July 2017, 17:32   #207
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Are you insinuating something?
I'm insinuating that you are insinuating something.
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Old 13 July 2017, 18:04   #208
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I'm insinuating that you are insinuating something.
Why would I? The only "insinuation" I had, was that the demo might have detected P96 on the Vampire and used different rendering technique for that. But even if so was the case, it still runs dead slow, nothing about this comparison puts the Vampire in any good light. For future comparisons, maybe side-by-side using the same binaries is a better approach than youtube videos that are years apart.
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Old 13 July 2017, 18:26   #209
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The only "Insinuation" I had, was that the demo might have detected P96 on the Vampire and used different rendering technique for that.
Well, you are discussing a Gold3-bringup video. Until now all Gold3-betas have no RTG functionality. Once the AGA reimplementation is finished, some additional effort will have to be done to unite RTG and AGA.
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But even if so was the case, it still runs dead slow, nothing about this comparison puts the Vampire in any good light.
I know that you are bright enough to understand the point of the video but I will explain it nonetheless. It shows that despite the lack of an FPU the Vampire can run AGA+FPU demos (which, again, represents FPU-software in general). It was pointed out before that a soft-FPU usually is quite slow and, also, that compatibility is a priority over speed for the soft-FPU at this time. So there is really no substance in your comment pointing out that some textures differ in different versions of the same demo.
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For future comparisons, maybe side-by-side using the same binaries is a better approach than youtube videos that are years apart.
Maybe do that yourself. The Apollo Team did not do any comparison, the comparing was done in this thread.
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Old 14 July 2017, 06:28   #210
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I'm a little confused (surprise surprise).

Gunnar's thread (http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4&note=5931) says they have an FPU already implemented that just needs error-testing by some who knows 68k code.

So I'm wondering why someone is implementing a soft FPU when that time could be spent finishing off the real one? (Sorry if the answer is obvious - I just would have thought the skill set that could do one task could do the other)

Personally I'm appreciative of any efforts put into FPU development, all those guys are doing a cracking job, just seeking to minimise my ignorance.
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Old 14 July 2017, 07:54   #211
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I'm a little confused (surprise surprise).

Gunnar's thread (http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4&note=5931) says they have an FPU already implemented that just needs error-testing by some who knows 68k code.

So I'm wondering why someone is implementing a soft FPU when that time could be spent finishing off the real one? (Sorry if the answer is obvious - I just would have thought the skill set that could do one task could do the other)

Personally I'm appreciative of any efforts put into FPU development, all those guys are doing a cracking job, just seeking to minimise my ignorance.
You're not the only person wondering about that. But I get the impression, and I could be wrong, that Jari Eskelinen has volunteered his services to write a softFPU to tie people over until the hardFPU is ready for placement into the FPGA. I don't think Gunnar is the one working on the softFPU so his attentions may already be focused on the hardFPU.
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Old 14 July 2017, 10:20   #212
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Well, you are discussing a Gold3-bringup video. Until now all Gold3-betas have no RTG functionality.
I had no idea.

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I know that you are bright enough to understand the point of the video
Wow, thank you

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It shows that despite the lack of an FPU the Vampire can run AGA+FPU demos (which, again, represents FPU-software in general).
Does it really? Various software use the FPU differently, and it's not as if all software that use FPU will use all the functionality of it. I cannot really think of any type of software that use _all_ functionality of an FPU, except test suits.

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It was pointed out before that a soft-FPU usually is quite slow and, also, that compatibility is a priority over speed for the soft-FPU at this time.
Yes, which makes perfect sense. I have also commented a few times - imagine that it is 10 times faster.

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So there is really no substance in your comment pointing out that some textures differ in different versions of the same demo.
Oh no, I am so sorry I pointed that out, oh my gosh. Again you insinuate that I did it only to discredit the Apollo core? That is a pretty nutty conclusion. but sadly also quite symptomatic for many those involved in the project - paranoia runs very high.

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Maybe do that yourself. The Apollo Team did not do any comparison, the comparing was done in this thread.
You know very well that I cannot do that, despite having all the hardware. I left your little garden, I was fed up with reading all the crap certain key members of the team were writing about other people.
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Old 14 July 2017, 10:50   #213
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But I get the impression, and I could be wrong, that Jari Eskelinen has volunteered his services to write a softFPU
This is correct. No need to speculate why resources have been directed from hardware development to softfpu - they have not.
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Old 14 July 2017, 11:04   #214
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Oh no, I am so sorry I pointed that out, oh my gosh. Again you insinuate that I did it only to discredit the Apollo core? That is a pretty nutty conclusion. but sadly also quite symptomatic for many those involved in the project - paranoia runs very high.

You know very well that I cannot do that, despite having all the hardware. I left your little garden, I was fed up with reading all the crap certain key members of the team were writing about other people.
Its a two way street of sorts. I realise that some(most?) people want development in the Amiga scene, be it perfect/exact copies of the original hardware, only with new components for longivity, with maybe the addition of modern connectivity (for addons etc). And some want warp speed performance.

When reading YOUR posts kolla, its a mixed bag of signals. Given the amount of knowledge you have, you defintly are a fan of the Amiga, but you have yourself said several times that you enjoy poking fun in other people.
And what you think is funny, might provoke others and vice versa.
Same as some people in the socalled Apollo Tribe. What they thought was just a lighthearted joke, has been taken in its worst meaning.

And add to that the ungodly amount of hours the Apollo Team surely has sunk into this project, and you got the perfect setup for friction, espesially thru forums. Im pretty sure that if you guys had a chat on voice/in reallife, all the socalled conflict areas would have cleared up in 10-20 minutes.

And then there are the few that just has decided to hate on Vampire no matter what. And the few that will attack anyone saying anything critical no matter what.

In the past Ive been critical to this fact, but Ive started to understand why some more high visibility developers has removed themselves from posting on forums much. Its an excerise of pissing into the wind for the most part.
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Old 14 July 2017, 11:04   #215
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I don't think Gunnar is the one working on the softFPU so his attentions may already be focused on the hardFPU.
Gunnar is not working on FPU for current Vampire cards, he is way over in the next FPGA systems as far as FPU is concerned. There will not be any FPU implemented in Apollo Core for current Vampire cards.
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Old 14 July 2017, 11:17   #216
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Same as some people in the socalled Apollo Tribe. What they thought was just a lighthearted joke, has been taken in its worst meaning.
It is one thing to poke fun at every now and then, I have no issues with that, I pretty much have had the same kind of relations with the MorphOS developers too, but they knew perfectly well where lines of decency are, they are normal people.

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And add to that the ungodly amount of hours the Apollo Team surely has sunk into this project, and you got the perfect setup for friction, espesially thru forums. Im pretty sure that if you guys had a chat on voice/in reallife, all the socalled conflict areas would have cleared up in 10-20 minutes.
No, I did spend some time doing that, hanging on IRC - again and again, but it just accumulated, the nonsense, the paranoia, the hostility, the name calling... it's like a stupid cult, and nothing Amiga like at all.
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Old 14 July 2017, 11:20   #217
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Back on topic please guys
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Old 14 July 2017, 11:28   #218
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Back on topic please guys
Apologies Sir!

I personally try to configure my Workbench to the point where I actually can use it for productivity. I personally see Gold 3+SoftFPU and Pamela to be a bit step in that direction based on the youtubes Ive seen so far.

Im no longer much of a gamer, but rather spreadsheets, wordprocessing and the odd need to use graphics programs to insert into documents.
Granted, given the power of LibreOffice, you can question the sanity of such an attempt, but for most tasks, the current programs do what they need to do.
What they are missing is export/import filters to use them between Wintel and Amiga.

Another major area thats lacking on AOS3.x is an updated PDF, both reader and creator. LibreOffice allows you to export to PDF directly, and thats THE must feature for me thru RL work.

Much of the ackwardness of using productivity on Amiga is the fact that Ive gotten so used to Wintel GUI, so I actually have to force myself to get used to Workbench again. If you want to use the Amiga beyond benchmarking, you just have to make a decision to do so

Last edited by Overflow; 14 July 2017 at 14:01.
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Old 14 July 2017, 11:40   #219
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I was hoping to use the Vampire A600 for sound and audio, but without a proper FPU that is just painful.

When SAGA is good enough, I will probably move it into an A1200 shell, add full keyboard and use it for old time 2D animation, exclusively.
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Old 14 July 2017, 12:19   #220
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Apologies Sir!
No need for you to apologise.

I should have been more specific, my comments were really directed to kola and grond.
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