English Amiga Board Amiga Lore


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 20 June 2017, 02:29   #61
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 17,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthey View Post
This "compatibility" is the reason why you and everyone is here though. It is the common ground which keeps the Amiga community together. Lose a portion of the compatibility and you lose a portion of the Amiga community.
I am here because I love 68k Amiga and I have plenty of them that work just fine. I don't need a new compatible machine. I have enough Amigas. Future reliability is mentioned? I can maybe see that, but that doesn't seem to be Apollo or Vampire. So why force them to? I thought there was also Minimig and FPGA Arcade with aims nearer to compatibility I believe.

So a project started a way and was veered another way. So what? Make your own if you are so affected. Support a project more suited to your vision and goals. WHat's teh point of destructive comments!

Vampire I see now as a chance to do something new. You say "lose a portion of the compatibility and you lose a portion of the Amiga community"? Isn't that already what "Amiga NG" is? All the PPC stuff? Again, keeping the thought that PPC Amiga, Amiga NG, whatchamacallit, is all part of the same word as 68K Amiga or even Vampire future, is ridiculous. They are not. They are not compatible, they don't crossover, people interested in one are usually not interested in the other.
Akira is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 20 June 2017, 05:00   #62
matthey
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
I am here because I love 68k Amiga and I have plenty of them that work just fine. I don't need a new compatible machine. I have enough Amigas. Future reliability is mentioned? I can maybe see that, but that doesn't seem to be Apollo or Vampire. So why force them to? I thought there was also Minimig and FPGA Arcade with aims nearer to compatibility I believe.
The Apollo Core has the wrong future (hyper optimized for affordable FPGA today only). The Minimig, FPGA Arcade and Mist have no future (they are retro only with no upgrade path).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
So a project started a way and was veered another way. So what? Make your own if you are so affected. Support a project more suited to your vision and goals. WHat's teh point of destructive comments!
My comments are not destructive but sometimes the truth is painful. I was contacted by Gunnar of the Apollo Team and asked to take part in his project. We at one time had a somewhat similar vision but Gunnar's vision changed. He became obsessed with performance in an affordable FPGA. I learned enough to be able to see the potential of the 68k and his mistakes. I wish there was a project to take us all the way instead of half the way but most of the Amiga community doesn't even understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Vampire I see now as a chance to do something new. You say "lose a portion of the compatibility and you lose a portion of the Amiga community"? Isn't that already what "Amiga NG" is? All the PPC stuff? Again, keeping the thought that PPC Amiga, Amiga NG, whatchamacallit, is all part of the same word as 68K Amiga or even Vampire future, is ridiculous. They are not. They are not compatible, they don't crossover, people interested in one are usually not interested in the other.
At one time, further developing the 68k would have been very difficult and expensive. PPC was one of the better choices then as it was big endian and supported as an upgrade path by Motorola. AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS didn't change that much when they were ported which is why they have most of the same limitations as AmigaOS 3. They did lose part of the Amiga user base as they became less compatible (they are both decently compatible so far with 68k AmigaOS friendly executables). They can drop the limitations and move further from their foundation as they port to ARM or x86_64 trying to replace users they lose along the way or they could also come back to the 68k and develop it properly and end the Amiga fragmentation. I am considering the PPC AmigaOS as part of the Amiga family but it is not as compatible as I like and PPC is unattractive today. Amiga users are voting as customers are choosing the Vampire over the NG systems. Does this mean Gunnar has it all right and I'm wrong? Not at all. He has no clue how many customers he is missing out on if he had an FPU, backward AmigaOS compatibility which didn't need patching, better compiler support, better documentation, etc. He has no clue how popular a standalone Amiga that costs half as much as the Vampire accelerator would be either but that is highly unlikely to happen with Gunnar's plan for the future. Be warned if you were hoping for an FPGA upgrade path and buy the Vampire for what it offers today only.
matthey is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 06:48   #63
E-Penguin
Banana

 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 281
Oh no, not again.

Can I just say "yay for AGA on the Vampire!" and be grateful for the work done by the Apollo team?

Optimising for cheap FPGA is perfectly reasonable when one is building a card with a cheap FPGA.
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 08:03   #64
thumptech
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Tasmania/Australia
Posts: 4
I seriously don't get all the hate. I bought one, it is amazing as it is. If something better comes along, I'll buy that. The Vampire is an amazing achievement but unfortunately it seems that the (a lot of the) Amiga scene is more about bitching than appreciation.

There is no way in hell i could upgrade my a4000 affordably to even come close to how great my A600 is with a vampire. AGA integration and 15khz sans scandoubler or an obscure LCD is icing on the cake. I now actually use an Amiga daily rather than sit them around like a dusty museum.
thumptech is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 08:49   #65
spacey
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 27
this looks fantastic - can't wait!
spacey is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 08:56   #66
Predseda
Puttymoon inhabitant
Predseda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The City of Townsville
Age: 39
Posts: 4,454
Predseda is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 11:31   #67
Sinphaltimus
Registered User

Sinphaltimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cresco, PA, USA
Age: 47
Posts: 668
More AGA video Demos please. Applications next.
Sinphaltimus is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 12:19   #68
OlafSch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Nuernberg
Posts: 454
@matthey

we know that you do not like gunnars vision because you keep telling it for months. Gunnar propably not even reads the different forums so he cannot read what you post here and even if he has decided what he wants to do so he will not change direction because you do not like it. The only effect you have that you annoy people and (in worst case) harms vampire/apollo because people perhaps not buy it because of your downtalking, but that is not very propable because too many already have and use it and are happy and even write that on forum discussions. I cannot understand why you do it, be bored, waste of time?

And BTW "truth" is relative, everybody has own set of truths. Your "truth" is not absolute, only dictators or certain politicians own "truth" as absolute but I assume you are neither dictator nor politician even if you sound sometimes like one :-)

Last edited by OlafSch; 20 June 2017 at 12:28.
OlafSch is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 12:23   #69
OlafSch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Nuernberg
Posts: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Yeah I get that, it has heritage planted on the Amiga of course, but I think I am ready to see it get life of its own before the Amiga drowns it with it .
Just by recent developments, like it overriding the chipset and not using the Amiga's videoport, it's getting more and more "out of the womb", and I can't wait for that to happen. The nature of the project has taken me from really wanting a Vampire inside my A600 to totally uninterested in using a Vampire with Apollo core inside any Amiga I have.
if your only interest is a accellerator with some extra ram then vampire is not for you
OlafSch is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 12:40   #70
grond
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
if your only interest is a accellerator with some extra ram then vampire is not for you
If I understood him right, he is now interested in the Vampire stand-alone.
grond is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 13:03   #71
Predseda
Puttymoon inhabitant
Predseda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The City of Townsville
Age: 39
Posts: 4,454
I really want a Vampire for ONE OF MY A1200s. So beside a vintage accelerator powered classic Amiga I want to have another with FPGA inside. They easily can live side by side and I am looking forward to it.
Predseda is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 13:34   #72
E-Penguin
Banana

 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Predseda View Post
beside a vintage accelerator powered classic Amiga I want to have another with FPGA inside. They easily can live side by side and I am looking forward to it.
This ^^
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 16:13   #73
daxb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,725
I think the most important problem is that people don`t understand or can`t. So it is easy to say "yay". At least some or most people with knowledge about Amiga understand.

Unfortunately, matthey is right. At least if it comes to the current state of Apollo and I fear it will not change in the near future. There is no hate. Just constructive criticism.

Topic:
Because it makes absolute sense and rumors say that there will be a dis- enable function for SAGA, it gets one. On the other hand it is possible that it will not come. Let us surprise.
daxb is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 16:39   #74
thumptech
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Tasmania/Australia
Posts: 4
Perhaps. But it reminds me of coworkers who got so hung up on the 'correct' way to develop projects that nothing ever happened and ultimately the whole business failed.
thumptech is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 16:45   #75
Lord Aga
MI clan prevails
Lord Aga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthey View Post
Because you are supposed to accept whatever the Apollo Team (Gunnar) decides is best for you.
Are they busting people's kneecaps if they don't accept it ?
Lord Aga is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 17:53   #76
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 17,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
if your only interest is a accellerator with some extra ram then vampire is not for you
Quote:
Originally Posted by grond View Post
If I understood him right, he is now interested in the Vampire stand-alone.
Right. I am not interested in the Vampire as an accelerator. I am interested in its future as something better and standalone.

Anyway, Matthey, it is impossible to have a chat with you, really.
Just be sure that your "truth" is also not THE truth, and by acting that way, you are no better than the Gunnar you describe and criticize.

To clarify, I am not part of Apollo team, I don't even know who Gunnar is or what he said. But it's really annoying to keep seeing these discussions with basically the same approach that is being criticized.

And the cherry on top is saying Amiga users "do not know/do not understand". Sure, we might not know about processor design or whatever, we don't have to, but we sure know what we want as the end consumers of whatever it is being produced. If you don't care about what the users want, then don't release stuff out to them. Keep it to yourself and make your dreams come true for your own self-satisfaction.
Akira is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 18:14   #77
Sinphaltimus
Registered User

Sinphaltimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cresco, PA, USA
Age: 47
Posts: 668
I like dreaming of the day mine gets delivered. Watching progress videos. More AGA videos please.

They have me hook line and sinker. I haven't seen anything I didn't like. No one is posting videos demonstrating why I wouldn't have wanted a vampire board. Every video I see reinforces my interest. More please.
Sinphaltimus is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 20:16   #78
Overflow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 304
[ Show youtube player ]

Amikit

[ Show youtube player ]
Overflow is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 20:35   #79
Sinphaltimus
Registered User

Sinphaltimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cresco, PA, USA
Age: 47
Posts: 668
Yay!
Sinphaltimus is offline  
Old 20 June 2017, 21:26   #80
modrobert
old bearded fool

modrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangkok
Age: 50
Posts: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthey View Post
The Apollo Core has the wrong future (hyper optimized for affordable FPGA today only). The Minimig, FPGA Arcade and Mist have no future (they are retro only with no upgrade path).
Think I understand what you are getting at, correct me if I'm wrong.

By avoiding FPGA vendor primitives and focusing on implementing all in plain VHDL/Verilog you open the door to future ASIC masks which potentially can give at least ten times the performance of the FPGA used now.

Then we are talking GHz range in performance, having 68k up there with modern PPC in performance, perhaps even surpass. I can relate to this dream and understand your concerns.
modrobert is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
vasm with Apollo Core 68080 and AMMX support phx News 11 17 February 2017 23:22
Apollo core and AROS 68k bounty TuKo Amiga scene 23 05 August 2016 20:25
Best way to do SuperAGA in Apollo core eXeler0 Amiga scene 64 27 February 2016 19:17
apollo-core forum HanSolo support.Other 4 16 September 2015 07:51
Work in progress. Cowcat Coders. General 7 18 February 2014 22:33

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.36590 seconds with 11 queries