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Old 20 June 2017, 10:20   #41
Gorf
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
But as a computer with its support i believe it could have got through, a lot of Amiga people jumped ship when they saw the A1200 wasn't the big leap we all hoped for, had Commodore waited as originally intended until 1994 and not rushed out the AA machines, the A500 was still selling well, they should have kept cost reducing that in a new shell.
Both, computer and console, would have been compatible to nothing.
And commodore was never really good at supporting software houses.
No games, no programs.

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Then in late 94 released a Hombre A4000 & A1200, the computer would be fast enough not to switch to Windows and fans had the 3D games they desired, heck even 16-bit console games were still selling better than Jaguar/3do etc systems until 95 when the Saturn and PSX hit the west, so the timing was far from being too late.
late 94 would have been way too late for anything. There was no chance to survive on EsC or AGA amiga so long - they would have needed AAA instead of AGA and even that a little bit earlier.
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Old 20 June 2017, 11:29   #42
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The mess started with ECS not being AGA+chunky. In the same way the next big mistake was doing the ECS-wedge type Amigas (A500+ and A600) in 16 bit instead of 32bit/020 with HDD-Option (basically the A500+ should have been an A1200+chunky). From then on it was only waiting for the end which came a little prematurely due to the losses in the PC business.
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Old 20 June 2017, 11:36   #43
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Both, computer and console, would have been compatible to nothing.
And commodore was never really good at supporting software houses.
No games, no programs.

late 94 would have been way too late for anything. There was no chance to survive on EsC or AGA amiga so long - they would have needed AAA instead of AGA and even that a little bit earlier.
There was talk if i remember from Commodore UK that either ECS or AGA would be on a single chip to bring a certain amount of compatibility to the new machines.

Of course it wouldn't! AGA near enough killed ECS machines dead, they were selling more even after AGA came out, the end result everything got fucked, as i said 16-bit consoles lasted until 95-96, the A500 could have got to the end of 94 easy for a lower price, budget computers are always needed and sell well, PC's were way to high in cost for most familys all through the 80s and 90s.
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Old 20 June 2017, 13:29   #44
Gorf
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Of course it wouldn't! AGA near enough killed ECS machines dead, they were selling more even after AGA came out, the end result everything got fucked, as i said 16-bit consoles lasted until 95-96, the A500 could have got to the end of 94 easy for a lower price, budget computers are always needed and sell well, PC's were way to high in cost for most familys all through the 80s and 90s.
Consoles: give away the hardware at production cost (or below), earn money with games.
Commodore: earn absolutely nothing with games or software and try to sell cheap hardware.

Well, guess what: consoles are always cheaper and still they earn more money!

cbm could not produce the A500 cheap enough and sales were dropping - thats way they came up with the idea of the the A300 ... and that ended in a even more expensive A600...

Not AGA was killing ECS, the A600 did.

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PC's were way to high in cost for most familys all through the 80s and 90s.
True for the 80s but not for the 90s.

And selling weak budgets toys without HD was one of the biggest problems for the Amiga as a platform. Always seen as a toy for kids.

Last edited by Gorf; 20 June 2017 at 13:42.
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Old 20 June 2017, 13:46   #45
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Consoles: give away the hardware at production cost (or below), earn money with games.
Commodore: earn absolutely nothing with games or software and try to sell cheap hardware.

Well, guess what: consoles are always cheaper and still they earn more money!

cbm could not produce the A500 cheap enough and sales were dropping - thats way they came up with the idea of the the A300 ... and that ended in a even more expensive A600...

Not AGA was killing ECS, the A600 did.
Consoles are cheaper because they have less parts in them, didn't stop many companies making millions through cheap computers, they sell because they are cheap, smaller profits vs bigger sales = big profits too!

Commodore did the right thing in making a cost reduced A500, they did it wrong by making into an A600, confusing consumers by cutting the numeric keyboard off, imagine if a PC maker did that they wouldn't sell the bloody things! Funnily enough though the A600 outsold the A1200, so it goes to show cheap Amiga's were still wanted.

I still don't agree the A600 killed ECS/A500, A600 sales were strong until Commodore pulled the plug at the end of 92 to try and sell its upcoming A1200, then guess what they didn't have enough inventory, killing sales on both counts, had the A600 had chance to sell on at a cheaper price i have no doubt it could have last a couple more years for Commodore to get Hombre out, A500 sales were over 1 million in 1991 and rising year on year, Commodore couldn't have fucked it up anymore if they tried again!

Anyway, sorry going off topic here.
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Old 20 June 2017, 14:12   #46
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I still don't agree the A600 killed ECS/A500, A600 sales were strong until Commodore pulled the plug at the end of 92 to try and sell its upcoming A1200, then guess what they didn't have enough inventory, killing sales on both counts, had the A600 had chance to sell on at a cheaper price i have no doubt it could have last a couple more years for Commodore to get Hombre out, A500 sales were over 1 million in 1991 and rising year on year, Commodore couldn't have fucked it up anymore if they tried again!
Not true in most markets. Not in UK an Germany and these countries had the largest fanbase.
The A600 was unsellable as soon as the A1200 was announced - loads of them were sent back!

1990 and 1991 was the peak for the A500. but it was clearly a peak and numbers began to drop significantly.
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Old 20 June 2017, 15:22   #47
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Read the AAA specs from DevCon 93 written by Dave Haynie it deffo had no Texture Mapping support. I can upload if you want ?
Just did and indeed you are right, no mention of texture mapping. Also the AAA register list does not mention anything texture mapping related. Yet, I was sure My memory is starting to suck
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Old 20 June 2017, 15:30   #48
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The A600 was unsellable as soon as the A1200 was announced - loads of them were sent back!
The A600s were eventually sold. I bought one new for 299DM (~150EUR) in the summer of 1993, plugged it into the family TV. Two years earlier I would have had to spend five times the money for an A500 plus 1084. There couldn't have been much money to be made with the A600. Commodore obviously was sitting on them and the parts for even more which forced them to sell at a loss reducing short-term losses but canibalising future sales. Hence, the A600 was a big desaster even though it may have sold many units. Nobody explicitly wanted ECS in wedge-type Amigas because there was hardly any benefit over OCS.

AGA just was too little too late. A lot of people that had been saving their money (buying an A600 when you already have an A500 never made that much sense, did it?) spent it on PC hardware. I bought my A1200 used in late 1994 from a guy that was saving for a 486. I guess it hadn't taken him too long to figure out that Doom had more appeal than the same old 2D Amiga games. AGA just never promised to reach a critical threshold. It wasn't the desired advance nor were there enough units sold to make it economically feasible to produce a lot of AGA-only games. This would have been different if AGA had come with the A3000 and had made it to the wedges in the form of a significant update (complete 32bit system) within a short time after the A3000. Commodore was losing the momentum at that time and with the A600 essentially being nothing more than a 1985 computer in a small package it was already too late. Commodore would have kept the Amiga going if they had sold upgrades even before they were desperately needed because the old stuff only made people yawn.
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Old 20 June 2017, 16:33   #49
sandruzzo
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AGA with small changes whould gave some time to put out HOMBRE:

128 kb fast mem
14 mhz- 32 bit blitter and copper
blitter with line mapping
8 16bit audio channel
chunky?( with14mhz -32bit copper would be 12 bit chunky!)
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Old 20 June 2017, 19:18   #50
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Yeah AAA had no 3d features.

The built in CPU was twice as fast as PlayStation and was 64 bit vs 32 bit. Hombre had no T + L built in but high end systems could have another HP processor as the main CPU and use the on board chip for doing T + L.

There was no z buffer or texture filtering.

Hombre Blitter and Copper were 64 bit vs AAA 32 bit versions.

Hombre had 12 16 bit audio channels vs AAA 8.

Yeah 4 8 bit playfields all with scrolling and scaling or combined for 32 bit mode.

Hombre was only 2 chips including CPU so would have been much cheaper than AAA systems. They aimed for 2 chip system at sub $40 cost.

These systems would have been fast and cheap !!
Thanx for your answer.

This is probably why they have canceled the AAA for Hombre. If i remember correctly.
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