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Old 18 February 2003, 16:02   #1
Paul
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Ram

There was something I never would have thought about as I didn’t think it mattered until I read this posted by Syko.
Quote:
One thing I do note from the posts, is that it appears that there are some strange people using the 24bit zorro II 8MB limit RAM. Personnaly, unless I was emulating a GVP HD series II RAM expansion or similar, I wouldn't bother having ANY 24bit RAM as this is slower (even under emu) than the zorro III ram which uses full 32bit access direct from the CPU.

Unless you're using a prog that requires this type of RAM - and other than util's for testing it, I wouldn't of thought there are any - it serves no good point, other than for accuracy of the emu. I have never used it, and don't expect to ever need it.
So my question...What is the difference between Z3-Fast and Fast Ram? Which is the recommended to advise people to use?

Also Why can’t I select any Fast RAM unless I set chip RAM to 2MB?

Any help would be appreciated to see if a correction is required here:
http://jambo.abime.net/howto.php?view=2

Thanks
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Old 20 February 2003, 18:48   #2
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As i stated somewhere around the "teaching Toni W., how Amiga memory allocation SHOULD be made", Z3 fastram is a not much used thing, and its not true, that CPU have a fast acess to it - the acess go trought Z3 bus, what slow-things down considerably.

Thats why it never get used.
ppls should use fastram - but since you can set only 8MB of it (even you emulating full 68020 or 68EC040 (emulator needs a correction there) ), what is not enought, its curently the only one way to do it - unless Toni W. take my recommendations seriously enought and change the max. 8MB of fast to max. 128MB of fast, with priority +30 and also report it at proper 32bit fastram - because programs (some of these) use even chipram, when see slow-fastmem...

Then come time, when you should change your recommendations
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Old 20 February 2003, 19:56   #3
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I still don't see the point. All RAM is exactly the same speed under JIT-mode, there is no need for different types of fast RAM under emulation. Z3-RAM was originally most likely selected because it supports very large RAM sizes.

You are still trying to do something that UAE is not designed to do. (emulating specific A3000 or A4000 configuration) Also stop complaining. There is quite a big difference between complaining and constructive critisism.

Finally, don't forget that UAE/WinUAE sources are available for free
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Old 20 February 2003, 20:23   #4
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Okey, dokey, but for Amiga, about 128MB of ram at max is enought, so, its not need for Z3 ram because of "very large sizes"

And futhermore, fastram is more common for Amiga users

...not to mention that Z3 adresspace is a little bit obscure

And im sorry, i trying to conconstructive, did not i pointed out interesting and very easily fixable quirks?
And please dont tell me, that im trying to do something, for what is not WinUAE designed to - its just nonsens. Everybody have into Amiga fastram.
No-one Z3 expansion ram, or WTF it is
So, allowing us a little bit more of fastram, when 020+ is used - its not that crazy or abusive, it is?
Then im sorry!
...but do you planing to correct the mistakes, like reporting the 68EC040 as 68040, well?
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Old 20 February 2003, 20:29   #5
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Quote:
21. Select The following Memory Settings to:-

Chip - Somewhere between 4 to 8 MB
Why? 4mb chip ram is almost never possible on a real amiga, more than 2mb chip is maybe only required for Capital Punishment.
 
Old 20 February 2003, 20:35   #6
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Thanks Burseg! That's what I wanted, constructive comment. I've never had a A1200 so wasn't sure of the right settings.
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Old 20 February 2003, 20:59   #7
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Burseg - actually, even some AGA demos requiring very quite close to 2MB of chipram - but with P96 its really not need to use more that 2MB - because when display is into fastram and RTG ram, it dont eat chipmem and then...

Its one of the benefits, even on real amiga, to use RTG gfx - bye bye "not enought chip-ram" problems
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Old 20 February 2003, 21:05   #8
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Quote:
Everybody have into Amiga fastram.
But fastram can mean regular fastram (0x200000->), 32-bit Z2 or Z3.. I guess adding new "32-bit Fast" to config GUI that emulates Z2-fast might be what you want but I think it will confuse most users even more than before

Quote:
like reporting the 68EC040 as 68040, well?
Doesn't 68EC040 mean 68040 without both FPU and MMU?
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Old 20 February 2003, 21:06   #9
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Most demos don't use the RTG shite, so one can stick that nice P96 up a donkey's arse.
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Old 20 February 2003, 21:33   #10
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Toni, well, i do NOT want to confuse anyone
Just allow, pretty please, more that 8MB of fastram, when user select a 68020+
Limit it to 128MB and map it to $08 000 000 - $10 000 000
Thats all. It dont confuse anyone, at least i hope so!
Do you think that this is good idea?

Ah, im sorry, yes, EC is 040 W/O everything, just like cripled 24bit adreses of EC020 and 030 cpus... T
he 040 CPUs (actually, 060 too, just 030 is diferent) is sorted that way:

68040 - full, including FPU/MMU
68LC040 - no FPU only (EC aka EConomic), sadly i have 2 that ones, 33Mhz, want it? For free...
68EC040 - no FPU and MMU (LC aka LowCost - crap )

...but the suggestion for EC come from conclusion, that LC040 have an active MMU too... (tought Thomas R. have to fix for me (and others too, ofcourse) one bug to make the MMU init work on LC040 ones, but thats betatesting ) ...witch UAE very sadly lacking off...

So, the very most precise naming for WinUAE is:
68EC040+FPU

...but maybe you can add also just the EC040 - no fpu - tought it probably did not make much sense...
...just as another suggestion - what about to report an FPU as 68882? IIRC 68881 dont difer from 68882, its just slower - but feel free to prove me wrong


Akira - true, but - shitie? :eek
And actually, every the modern ones, starting as long ago, as 1997, using RTG, when available
And with not bad results, at least on decent Z3 bus and fast GFX card (CV64 (not 3D!) or PIV recommended - CV64 is actually faster, when come to pure writing speed, thanks to the chip is a VLBUS one, witch dont need the Zorro2PCI bridge, cause VLBUS is quite similar to Zorro ).
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Old 20 February 2003, 22:04   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by trodas
And actually, every the modern ones, starting as long ago, as 1997, using RTG, when available
Do you realize this is absolute
B O L L O X???

I downloaded loads of new demos and they don't even say "hey, there's an option for rtg".

I bet next thing you say is "that's because the coders sucked"
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Old 20 February 2003, 22:05   #12
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Actually being able to select regular fast ram up to 64 or maybe 128mb would be more realistic. Otherwise an emulated EC020 amiga can't have more than 2+8+1 ram which it not the case with real amigas.
 
Old 20 February 2003, 22:29   #13
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Quote:
Otherwise an emulated EC020 amiga can't have more than 2+8+1 ram which it not the case with real amigas.
68EC020 have only 24-bit address bus. 2^24 = 16 777 216 = 16MB max address space. Lower 9MB can be RAM, rest is reserved for custom chips, max ~1.8MB "slow" RAM autoconfig area, Kickstart ROM etc..

I think it would be possible to have extra ~1-1.5MB of RAM at "empty" space between custom chips and KS ROM but that can't be too useful..

Quote:
Just allow, pretty please, more that 8MB of fastram, when user select a 68020
It is not so simple. 68020+ Amigas still can have "24-bit" fast RAM at 0x200000-0x800000 and 32-bit RAM at anywhere KS's autoconfig decided to locate it which means UAE needs another fast RAM config option for 32-bit Z2 RAM = more confused users

Edit: fixed RAM amounts..

Last edited by Toni Wilen; 21 February 2003 at 08:01.
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Old 20 February 2003, 22:41   #14
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Akira - most demos did not mention it, but do it
You will realize, when you run the demo and have a RTG system installed. Hey, evel Euskal party invitations have a RTG support build-in!


Burseg - im pretty good aware of the limitation of the cripled EC 24bit adressing, thats why i mention, that it have to be awailable only when there is selected a real 020+


Toni Wilen -
Quote:
68020+ Amigas still can have "24-bit" fast RAM
Well, maybe something that obscure realy exists, and no dubt about it, its teoreticaly possible (altrought i remembering something, but that was a old A500, that when you installed the typical FakeFastRam under keyboard, then you cant instal the real fast ram on the CPU slot at left...

Well, cut the cheese - lets face it, there is no possible reason (since under emulation all the "ram" is same fast) to anyone want 24bit fastram - lest force 32bit fastram, when come to nonEC 020+ cpus and - Burseg was right - even 64MB will be fine (i curently using only 32MB and its fine) - or128 - it IMHO did nto matter, do it?
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Old 21 February 2003, 10:51   #15
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I have decided to change settings to:

* Chip - Set to 2 MB
* Fast - Somewhere around 4 to 8 MB
* RTG (graphics card) - Somewhere between 4 to 32 MB
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Old 21 February 2003, 12:27   #16
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Quote:
68EC020 have only 24-bit address bus. 2^24 = 16 777 216 = 16MB max address space. Lower 9MB can be RAM, rest is reserved for custom chips, max ~1.8MB "slow" RAM autoconfig area, Kickstart ROM etc..

I think it would be possible to have extra ~1-1.5MB of RAM at "empty" space between custom chips and KS ROM but that can't be too useful..
Then how can a1200 accelerators such as blizzard ones allow 32mb or more ram?
 
Old 21 February 2003, 12:33   #17
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Because that has a 68030 on board with totally different address space specs?

What is the most you can stick in an '030 Blizzard card btw? I have 8mb currently.
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Old 21 February 2003, 12:35   #18
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It might be, but then again, WinUAE doesn't have an option to have more than 8mb fast regardless of the processor!

I only have 32mb ram modules available and they work with 1230-IV. I've got 2x32=64mb on my 040/PPC 603e

Amiga-hardware says, 128mb is possible on a 1230-IV
603e manual also mentions the same amount.
 
Old 21 February 2003, 12:55   #19
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Quote:
WinUAE doesn't have an option to have more than 8mb fast regardless of the processor!
Just use Z3 fast and be happy. I still don't see the point of emulating Z2-fast because the only difference under WinUAE is location and 128MB limit.

68881/68882: I think the only real difference was speed which is currently irrelevant under emulation. I think it is quite pointless to implement cycle-exact FPU emulation
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Old 21 February 2003, 13:12   #20
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Wink Memory, memory...

Echo/Burseg - any full (not EC!) 020/030 cpu (LC and EC 040/060 as wel) can handle 4G of adressspace (32bit). How the space is maintained is up to AmigaOS specs.
Mostly there is a 128MB limit, but with Blizzard seried, when you add a SCSI kit, you can stick 128MB module into it, what with 64MB into Blizzard itself can show as 192MB of ram
Mine Blizz+scsi kit has got 2x 64MB 50nS ram modules, getting 128MB of ram.

Toni Wilen - yes, there is no big diference, except the very confusing naming "Z3 fastram" - most long time Amiga users never ever hear about it at all!
And i wont call is Z2-fast at all! Hell, simply fast-ram!
And its already there, just pretty please increase the limit of it to 128MB, when 020+ is choosen, thanks! (together with correcting the adressing space)

68881/68882 - i think too, but im lazy to check manuals, so, i could be proven wrong And no, i dont asked for this, i asked for reporting the FPU as 68882 instead of 68881, cause the speed is more close to 68882
Acutally, its much faster, but thats sure closely to 68882 that "1", right?

And its better to implement a MMU, that realy pointless exact cycle fpu emulation
You are so damn right there!
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