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Old 24 April 2017, 20:00   #121
michaelz
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I don't really care about Linux in this debate. It's simple, Linux was open from the start, Amiga Kickstart and Workbench (or combined: AmigaOS) are not. We cannot hope to get this as as widespread as Linux, we can hope to get the sources open and build upon them.

I really want it to be open sourced, to build upon it in an open way, but on this moment, that's probably all we get. Just getting out community to grow, will probably take a few years to a decade just because we have to catch up with Windows, Linux and macOS.

That also puts my perspective on this, I'm in it for the long haul. But let's do it step for step, and the first is obvious; get everything up to 3.1 open source.
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Old 24 April 2017, 20:06   #122
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Ok. Linux may have 1.5% of the desktop/laptop market now in Europe. It was <1% last time I looked (maybe in the U.S.). Mobile is all about the popularity of Android which I recognized (even if not impressive much like the popular Windows on the desktop). It looks like Linux is probably doing well in the server market although the data is highly "inconsistent".

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But things like servers? 'Other UNIX flavors'? You are essentially arse raped if you are still vendor locked to one nowadays, nobody does now setups on proprietary UNIX.
Ok. It looks like Linux has taken large market share in servers which is probably a profitable market. It looks like it has taken share from Unix and BSD too.

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'CPU variations fragment the market and make Linux slow' slow!? oh fuck i'm not even getting into this :-/
ARM variants for Android I said. This is why there was Dalvik and then ART byte code which is horribly inefficient compared to a CPU specific executable, especially on lower performance mobile ARM processors.

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success? a resounding one.
Desktop/laptop, no. Mobile through a heavily modified and standardized Linux with Android, yes if you want to call it Linux. Linux for businesses, maybe in Europe, here in the U.S. it is mostly Windows except for some big businesses. Linux for servers, probably.

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Originally Posted by michaelz View Post
I don't really care about Linux in this debate. It's simple, Linux was open from the start, Amiga Kickstart and Workbench (or combined: AmigaOS) are not. We cannot hope to get this as as widespread as Linux, we can hope to get the sources open and build upon them.
Linux was just a free and open source flavor of Unix which had been around for much longer. Perhaps like AROS compared to AmigaOS?

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I really want it to be open sourced, to build upon it in an open way, but on this moment, that's probably all we get. Just getting out community to grow, will probably take a few years to a decade just because we have to catch up with Windows, Linux and macOS.
AROS will likely take over AmigaOS flavors and become dominant. I'm not sure what effect releasing the AmigaOS source would have on it.

1) AROS and AmigaOS would grow together
2) AROS would improve and AmigaOS would die out
3) AmigaOS would improve and AROS would die out
4) worse flavor hell than the Amiga has now and more like Linux

I would rather not have #4 which is why I suggested a development and standardization committee. The Amiga efforts and market share are already too fragmented by the AmigaOS flavors and camps.

Last edited by matthey; 24 April 2017 at 20:25.
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Old 24 April 2017, 20:22   #123
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@matthey

You are also missing the TOP 500.

Of the 500 fastest supercomputers of the world, 498 run Linux, and the remaining 2 run AIX. So it is easy to say Linux crushes the competition in this supercomputer segment.
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Old 24 April 2017, 21:40   #124
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Kinda wish I hadn't mentioned the L-word...

At the risk of provoking further digression, there are examples of proprietary software being made open and development steered by a "community process", while the commercial side still makes money. Java, being the first to spring to mind.

Something similar for AmigaOS would work.
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Old 24 April 2017, 21:49   #125
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You are also missing the TOP 500.

Of the 500 fastest supercomputers of the world, 498 run Linux, and the remaining 2 run AIX. So it is easy to say Linux crushes the competition in this supercomputer segment.
This is a very niche market (more niche than the AmigaOS PPC market). Even the server market I'm not too concerned about. I'm looking at the desktop/laptop, mobile/netbook and (retro) console markets and see deficiencies, inefficiencies and difficulties where the Amiga could have been better and still is in some ways. Several years ago, I had investors with hundreds of thousands of U.S. dollars ready to invest in Amiga hardware (retro/hobbyist/embedded) without even approaching one person (they contacted me). I was investigating paths to make it happen and started looking for technology partners. The biggest loose end was the AmigaOS with the current situation and the likely cost to obtain and develop it (including legal fees). I certainly had no answer for Dave Alsup (FIDO 68k CPU) when he asked a question about which OS. The nail in the coffin was Gunnar von Boehn when I decided he was not a team player and too risky to have in charge of anything. Of course we would have needed more money but I always thought raising several million U.S. dollars would be the easy part.
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Old 24 April 2017, 21:53   #126
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I don't see the point of comparing Amiga OS to Linux in this particular matter. It's not like Amiga OS is a huge success atm just because someone still sells it.

I agree with @e-penguin & @ptyerman Open source would be good for Cloanto, they could be the overseer of the open source project but benefit from contributions from the community. And apart from selling updated ROMs they could surely sell updated Amiga OS installs on CF or SD cards with nice official stickers at a profit. A lot of ppl are lazy and wouldn't mind paying some €€ to avoid the hassle of doing it yourself..
At some point Cloanto wont be selling a lot of licences because they will have saturated the marked and also have nothing new to offer.
By releasing the sources they would rejuvenate their own business, I'm sure.
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Old 24 April 2017, 23:19   #127
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@matthey

Sometimes I wish we had more sane people driving our community.

@eXelr0

I also believe that is a very good solution for all parties involved.

Cloanto adds value to their product without investing money in development, and focus mostly on selling and beautifying their package which would be much more appealing to an already saturated market.

Then they could even have additional income coming from the sale of new AmigaOS manuals, kickstart roms, and a new Workbench related merchandise such as t-shirts, mugs, etc.

And we get a continuation on 68k development, and everyone is happy.
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Old 24 April 2017, 23:48   #128
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It would be a beneficial all round solution. Would depend if Cloanto was interested in going this route and taking on the responsibility though. They are only a small operation after all.
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Old 25 April 2017, 00:34   #129
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I would welcome commercial ventures with an opened OS.
You would need someone to produce ROM chips for physical boxes and to give the new versions "legitimacy" - something a commercial entity can stand behind. Some revision or another should be marked as "done"; this was 106 for V39 and 63 for V40.
If left to our own devices "we" could easily end up in an endless desert walk before any next version is good enough. A little commercial push could be welcome. IMO.
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Old 25 April 2017, 04:07   #130
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AROS will likely take over AmigaOS flavors and become dominant.
Everything I've tried to do with AROS thus far leads me to believe this is not likely.
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Old 25 April 2017, 10:01   #131
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@gulliver

Amen.

@NorthWay

That's another brilliant idea there, the idea that people could sell custom-rolled ROMs.

@esc

If the AROS team were given full, legal access to the AmigaOS 3.1 sources (i.e. no "clean room" required), do you think it would help them to make a more useful, compatible product? Personally, I do.
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Old 25 April 2017, 19:12   #132
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This sounds weird. I'm wondering what's going on, because this is not something discussed with Mike.
Maybe it sounds weird to you, but that's Cloanto's MO. It's not their first time to refuse posting on the forum boards, and go after individuals "in the dark".

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Don't share more than what feels comfortable, but hmmmm.. very weird way to communicate with a community. For example, Jens S. has a pretty good contact with the community through forums, why couldn't Cloanto, right?
It would be very interesting to get some official Cloanto person's opinion in these matters.
It would be of benefit to both parties if we agreed where the future of Amiga OS 3.x lies ;-)

Apart from risking being digitally beaten up by bitter and grumpy geeks, what do they have to lose?
Well, since I got another one it is clear that they have plenty of time to write messages, but they don't want to join a public discussion.

I told their representative to post anything he has to say in appropriate threads. If they continue with the private messaging approach I will consider it a threat.

P.S.
Coincidentally, Ladyjane is on a rampage in the other thread, posting wXR's private info and threatening to cause trouble at his workplace.
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Old 25 April 2017, 19:35   #133
meynaf
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If they continue with the private messaging approach I will consider it a threat.

P.S.
Coincidentally, Ladyjane is on a rampage in the other thread, posting wXR's private info and threatening to cause trouble at his workplace.
Sadly this is exactly what I expected...
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Old 25 April 2017, 19:47   #134
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While I would love an open source AmigaOS I don't see Cloanto making much money from this. Their target is Amiga Forever, for people who want to play games in an emulator. Games require a verbatim Kickstart 1.3/3.x ROM.
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Old 25 April 2017, 19:57   #135
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Well, there's more of a chance to make money off it once it's open - releasing "official" milestone workbench and kickstart editions.

There can't be much money to be made with Amiga Forever - once you buy it, there's almost no reason to buy it again as it's a static platform.
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Old 25 April 2017, 20:33   #136
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While I would love an open source AmigaOS I don't see Cloanto making much money from this. Their target is Amiga Forever, for people who want to play games in an emulator. Games require a verbatim Kickstart 1.3/3.x ROM.


I disagree. They also "grew" their product from classic 68k emulation to include ppc. Emulation would still be useful for a lot of people who want to play old games with a user friendly interface so they don't need to go through hoops to setup. Besides, Cloanto sells the product with a lot more software on top of it. So there would still be a market for that I guess.

I see most of the grow for Cloanto because some coders will write software for the enhanced open source version (that could probably run on x86(32/64) and arm in the future), but also be compiled on the 68k for the fun of it. Besides, Cloanto can support the newer as well in their user friendly package. For those who don't want to install it on their Windows PC. It would be a bit like parallels on mac or VMware workstation on Windows.

It could, if they help foster it, grow their market.
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Old 25 April 2017, 20:36   #137
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I disagree. They also "grew" their product from classic 68k emulation to include ppc. Emulation would still be useful for a lot of people who want to play old games with a user friendly interface so they don't need to go through hoops to setup. Besides, Cloanto sells the product with a lot more software on top of it. So there would still be a market for that I guess.

I see most of the grow for Cloanto because some coders will write software for the enhanced open source version (that could probably run on x86(32/64) and arm in the future), but also be compiled on the 68k for the fun of it. Besides, Cloanto can support the newer as well in their user friendly package. For those who don't want to install it on their Windows PC. It would be a bit like parallels on mac or VMware workstation on Windows.

It could, if they help foster it, grow their market.


Follow up; and don't forget that the classic market might boost because it will be easier to develop new hardware. If I remember correctly @plasmab said, having access to the kickstart sources, might have accelerated the development of the Gayle cpld. This would be true for more hardware. More hardware would mean more interesting developments and might result in a bigger community.
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Old 25 April 2017, 23:56   #138
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"You can milk a cow shamelessly but we all know the cow will get old and die at some point." :-)

Cloanto as a company does a lot of mixed stuff, one of it happens to be Amiga Forever, so they are hardly dependent on it for its survival, but, without any sort of development of the OS and content itself, the market *will* get saturated - and then what?
The growth forecast for a static niche system isn't great. By opening the sources while continuing to oversee the distributions they would have new stuff to offer and that way, the small market you have would have a reason to get back to them for more.

Oh well.. I guess only enough $$ could make things move because it seems they care about some small profit not any actual interest in keeping the platform fresh....

Or maybe Jens will buy it eventually and become the emperor of Amigaland ;-)
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Old 26 April 2017, 01:09   #139
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If the AROS team were given full, legal access to the AmigaOS 3.1 sources (i.e. no "clean room" required), do you think it would help them to make a more useful, compatible product? Personally, I do.
It might make fixing bugs/incompatibilities easier, but wouldn't help with adding missing functionality, considering that the most important components that are missing from AROS are from OS3.5/3.9.
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Old 26 April 2017, 02:57   #140
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"You can milk a cow shamelessly but we all know the cow will get old and die at some point." :-)

Cloanto as a company does a lot of mixed stuff, one of it happens to be Amiga Forever, so they are hardly dependent on it for its survival, but, without any sort of development of the OS and content itself, the market *will* get saturated - and then what?
The growth forecast for a static niche system isn't great. By opening the sources while continuing to oversee the distributions they would have new stuff to offer and that way, the small market you have would have a reason to get back to them for more.

Oh well.. I guess only enough $$ could make things move because it seems they care about some small profit not any actual interest in keeping the platform fresh....
I like the analogy. Computers are a high technology business which needs reinvestment and R&D to improve and create new products. How fast does the milk production go down if you don't take care of the milked cows?

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Or maybe Jens will buy it eventually and become the emperor of Amigaland ;-)
I hope Jens doesn't buy and control the whole Amigaland. Do you really think he is that good that you would trust the whole Amiga future with him? What great vision and leadership has he exhibited so far?
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