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Old 02 March 2017, 21:56   #141
matthey
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Originally Posted by wawa View Post
i know that, but it isnt (yet) the os component by itself. it is freely avaliable free of charge. the point being, aros (or whatever alternative open source system you might want to create) doesnt need to recreate each and every amiga library, device or program if they are anyway available for the general public, except you need to improve or extend its functionality. what would be the sense of it otherwise? aros68k is done particularly to be compatible with all these bits ad pieces in mind. i think it is an advantage not a handicap, as minous try to make it look like. but lets leave this apparent offtopic be.
If AROS doesn't have all the functionality of AmigaOS 3.9 then switching to it would be a downgrade in some ways to Minuous, me and other AmigaOS 3.9 users. Add that to the downgrade in performance and AROS is not as appealing of an AmigaOS "alternative". I'm not knocking AROS but it is what it is. AROS does have other functionality and benefits which may offset this but it is still a downgrade in some ways. Adoption hurdles are an important consideration if you want people to give up on AmigaOS 3.x and switch to the open source AROS. Don't underestimate the importance of compatibility, especially with little new 68k software.

Last edited by matthey; 02 March 2017 at 22:01.
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Old 02 March 2017, 22:04   #142
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matt, as i demontrated, aros runs reaction applications minous mentioned just fine with classact. use olafs distro any you wont notice any downgrade in this respect. speed is a separate matter. lets not derail this thread. i wrote you a pm if you want to discuss it.

edit: just a remark: i dont want people to give up os3.x, where do you have it from? i consider it a common denominator and wouldnt advocate using any aros extension if they are not neccessary, not to divide the community anymore, same as i wouldnt use gunnars/apollo/ammx where inappropriate to create incompatible platform. understood?
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Old 02 March 2017, 22:24   #143
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Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
If it remains at OS3.1 levels of functionality of course I won't use it, why would anyone!?
FFS.
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Old 02 March 2017, 23:58   #144
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If AROS doesn't have all the functionality of AmigaOS 3.9 then switching to it would be a downgrade in some ways to Minuous, me and other AmigaOS 3.9 users. Add that to the downgrade in performance and AROS is not as appealing of an AmigaOS "alternative". I'm not knocking AROS but it is what it is. AROS does have other functionality and benefits which may offset this but it is still a downgrade in some ways. Adoption hurdles are an important consideration if you want people to give up on AmigaOS 3.x and switch to the open source AROS. Don't underestimate the importance of compatibility, especially with little new 68k software.
That's fair enough. I hope nobody's saying AROS is perfect - the 68k version especially. It's ok to admit faults, but some people like Minuous use this "OS 3.1 clone" thing as a convenient lie to undermine and denigrate AROS's achievements.

Anyone who's seen the recent screenshots of SMP on AROS and still writes that the AROS team have failed to reach OS 3.5 level cannot be acting in good faith, surely?
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Old 03 March 2017, 00:03   #145
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If it remains at OS3.1 levels of functionality of course I won't use it, why would anyone!?
Because a lot of people don't have, and don't care to have, the bullshit hardware shit required to run that system.
A lot of us have modern computers and systems to do their every day computing stuff, and our requirements for hobby computers are completely different and might not require expanded hardware and other tidbits.
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Old 03 March 2017, 01:21   #146
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aros needs some 1.5mb ram to boot without styrtup sequence and some 6.5mb to boot to full wanderer.

hint: how does that compare to the requirements of the genuine amiga systems with less features, such as os3.9? or even how does that compare to os4 requirements?
OS 3.9 with Workbench loaded eats 2,1 megabytes. What features does AROS have that OS 3.9 doesn't?

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Originally Posted by wawa
nevertheless if you insist, there is a simple replacement for full fledged desktop in aros system dir. its called workbook. it is aimed at floppies and low end systems. it is just not ready, but i hear some people are using it anyway.
Does Workbook have the features of Workbench 3.9?
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Old 03 March 2017, 10:22   #147
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OS 3.9 with Workbench loaded eats 2,1 megabytes. What features does AROS have that OS 3.9 doesn't?



Does Workbook have the features of Workbench 3.9?
plenty... AHI, CybergraphX 3, MESA/Gallium (still too slow though), USB (Poseidon), Themeing...

patches are partly already integrated like f.e. you can move windows out of visible area

the most important feature is that sources are open and can be adapted to new hardware and that it not relies on certain individuals or companies

of course if you are happy with what is available then you do not need that
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Old 03 March 2017, 11:31   #148
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OS 3.9 with Workbench loaded eats 2,1 megabytes. What features does AROS have that OS 3.9 doesn't?
as you see the additional requirement in comparison to isnt that big 3.9, especially keeping in mind that wanderer loads the whole skinning system along with the default skin (can be disabled), the backround graphics and so on. keep in mind that cpu requirements are the same (or on aros even lower) as os3.9 needs 68020.

its hard to go into detail in features, we could do a detailed one somewehre else. aros with its default desktop/filemanager wanderer (i dont like it too much, as well as the default huge icon set) is rather comparable to os4 workbench or probably morphos ambient rather than to 3.9. however the memory requirements of fully booted system remain ten times (!!) lower than os4 for instance (7mb vs 70mb, doesnt it say something?). it would be better to know what is important to you, since i have always had an impression that 3.9 is a cosmetic update in comparison to 3.1 anyway.

Quote:
Does Workbook have the features of Workbench 3.9?
i dont think so. its rather minimalistic and unfinished. it was planned to fin onto a floppy, so id rather really compare it with a 3.1 workbench. but it doesnt need mui/zune and it should be able to display your png icons nevertheless i think.

anyway on aros you have a choice of desktop. you can run 68k magellan as olaf does. you can take default wanderer or choose scalos from the contributions volume, which i prefer, albeit i dont get to running it that much, because im rather concerned with testing and helping developers elsewhere.

Last edited by wawa; 03 March 2017 at 11:38.
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Old 03 March 2017, 13:50   #149
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The additional requirement isn't big in comparison? You stated that AROS with its Workbench equivalent eats 6,5 MB of memory. That is more memory than I have in my A1200, 70 % of memory in my A600 and 90 % of memory in my A600 with PCMCIA enabled.

The OS4 Workbench is mostly identical functionality-wise to OS3.9 WB, and last time I used Ambient, it lagged behind both 3.9 and 4.0.

Your impression of Workbench 3.9 as a cosmetic update says a lot. AFAIK there isn't much code in common between WB 3.1 and WB 3.9.
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Old 03 March 2017, 15:32   #150
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The additional requirement isn't big in comparison? You stated that AROS with its Workbench equivalent eats 6,5 MB of memory. That is more memory than I have in my A1200, 70 % of memory in my A600 and 90 % of memory in my A600 with PCMCIA enabled.
alright. you are using os3.9 on almost unexpanded amigas, then you probably dont need aros or any other improved os that might have been implemented. lets try to start from the other end: what is that you are not satisfied about or missing on your current 3.9 setups that makes you want amiga system (even if it was os3.1) to be open sourced? what are your demands toward such a potential improved system?


Quote:
The OS4 Workbench is mostly identical functionality-wise to OS3.9 WB, and last time I used Ambient, it lagged behind both 3.9 and 4.0.
i believe you, actually i know os4, except im sure both os4 and morphos users would discuss that.

Quote:
Your impression of Workbench 3.9 as a cosmetic update says a lot. AFAIK there isn't much code in common between WB 3.1 and WB 3.9.
so what? its an user opinion. after purchasing 3.9 and even os4 i wondered how few improvements were there in comparison to the huge version jump. 3.9 might actually serve as 3.2 imho, not even taking into acconut that it was a rather loose bag of contribs, most of them available for os3.1 in one or other form. for the record, im still actively using 3.9 (i have heavily patched it to make it decently usable as a working environment, modified rom, poseidon in flash, power windows in flash) and 3.1.

from a user perspective, i dont care so much if the code is shared or not, same as in case aros vs amiga os. it simply should work and enable to use given software. and on my encounter improving os3 and trying to port software to it i recognized that there are limits impossible or almost impossible to overcome patching it. not only because the source wasnt available, but also because of the level of complication and the logistics of maintenance. that was my reason why i turned to aros as it become feasible to run it on amiga. as i previosly stated im not particularly interested in anything that doesnt run on an amiga (be it arosx86, os4 or morphos), but it is my own bias.
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Old 03 March 2017, 16:33   #151
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Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
The additional requirement isn't big in comparison? You stated that AROS with its Workbench equivalent eats 6,5 MB of memory. That is more memory than I have in my A1200, 70 % of memory in my A600 and 90 % of memory in my A600 with PCMCIA enabled.

The OS4 Workbench is mostly identical functionality-wise to OS3.9 WB, and last time I used Ambient, it lagged behind both 3.9 and 4.0.

Your impression of Workbench 3.9 as a cosmetic update says a lot. AFAIK there isn't much code in common between WB 3.1 and WB 3.9.
not much code in common between 3.1 and 3.9? So everything rewritten in 3.9 despite based on 3.1 kickstart?

sounds not very propable to me... there are of course improvements and some rewrite but not completely
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Old 03 March 2017, 16:57   #152
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sounds not very propable to me... there are of course improvements and some rewrite but not completely
it must be another example of urban legends we have to do here. especially if it really was the case it might be considered an alien replacement to the genuine os, provided by a third party, h&p and consorts rather than by the original developers.
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Old 03 March 2017, 18:04   #153
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@clebin:

>Minuous use this "OS 3.1 clone" thing as a convenient lie to undermine and denigrate AROS's achievements.

"The goal of the AROS project is it to create an OS which: 1. Is as compatible as possible with AmigaOS 3.1" That quote is from http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php . You are the only one who seems to think it is a lie and if it is the fault is with the author of that page, not me.

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apparently you have not checked for more than five minutes, if you state that something that works doesnt work. if it didnt most likely the stack was too low.
I didn't state that "something that works doesnt work", I have installed AROS x86, ran some of the included software and tried a couple of x86 AROS programs from Aminet, however as I mentioned there was/is not much there. Of course I did not try any 68K/PPC software as it would not work as it has no 68K or PPC emulation.
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Old 03 March 2017, 18:26   #154
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@clebin:

>Minuous use this "OS 3.1 clone" thing as a convenient lie to undermine and denigrate AROS's achievements.

"The goal of the AROS project is it to create an OS which: 1. Is as compatible as possible with AmigaOS 3.1" That quote is from http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php . You are the only one who seems to think it is a lie and if it is the fault is with the author of that page, not me.
you knowingly guote (i dont think that you are so unintelligent, as not to understand this) a requirement as a restriction.

Quote:
I didn't state that "something that works doesnt work", I have installed AROS x86, ran some of the included software and tried a couple of x86 AROS programs from Aminet, however as I mentioned there was/is not much there. Of course I did not try any 68K/PPC software as it would not work as it has no 68K or PPC emulation.
the subject here is amiga (68k) software.

not x86.

you have stated that the example 68k reaction application, you pointed to, is not working on aros upon you tried arosx86? is that right?

then you repeatedly said that you had enough experience with aros to make statements about it, even that i presented you with a well recognizable screenshot of your example application, running on aros68k in the meantime?

you are constantly playing dumb and trying to skew your own and others statements in order to at least make it look like you were right.

this isnt a discussion nor an opponent i like to invest my time into.
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Old 03 March 2017, 19:14   #155
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>just checked reportplus from aminet with latest aros68k nightly and classact. it works. wanna screenshot?? :

That is not any reasonably recent version, seems you are using a 15-year-old obsolete version such as V4.71, which is mostly GadTools-based. Why did you not try V7.07 instead?
The correct link is http://aminet.net/util/misc/ReportPlus.lha

>this isnt a discussion nor an opponent

How am I your (or anybody's) opponent? I don't understand why are you taking this discussion personally and engaging in ad hominem attacks, I really don't think it is warranted to personally attack people in this way just because they disagree with you.

Last edited by Minuous; 03 March 2017 at 19:20.
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Old 03 March 2017, 23:01   #156
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Wonderful, so the topic was about the best ways to open source the 3.x codebase, and it turns into an AROS slanging match, awesome.

I personally have zero interest in running AROS on my classic hardware, why? Because it's simply not Amiga OS, it's an alternative operating system.

How about moving the AROS stuff to another thread rather than trying to derail the topic into some sort of AROS PR exercise?
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Old 03 March 2017, 23:15   #157
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How about moving the AROS stuff to another thread rather than trying to derail the topic into some sort of AROS PR exercise?
Noted. Thanks for the suggestion.

If I can make it stand alone, then I'll do just that.

If not, then it just gets removed.
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Old 03 March 2017, 23:24   #158
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Originally Posted by Mr.Flibble View Post
Wonderful, so the topic was about the best ways to open source the 3.x codebase, and it turns into an AROS slanging match, awesome.

I personally have zero interest in running AROS on my classic hardware, why? Because it's simply not Amiga OS, it's an alternative operating system.

How about moving the AROS stuff to another thread rather than trying to derail the topic into some sort of AROS PR exercise?


I don't think it get open source. Cloanto has gone through a lot of hoops to get it all under their umbrella. They make money on Amiga Forever and selling replacement kickstart roms and workbench disks. It wouldn't be worth the effort to open source it and loose more customers to the already open source Win-UAE and FS-UAE.

Only way I see itever happening; a community effort to buy Cloanto and then as the shareholder open sourcing everything. I don't think that would leave anything of Cloanto afterwards. But this will probably never happen.
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Old 03 March 2017, 23:59   #159
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While AROS isn't truly AmigaOS, it might be the best option we have for long term future Amiga.

It makes me wonder though, just how much can Clonato be selling? How many people do you think buy their package each year? With any project there is a certain number of sales you have to make to break even, sure they are probably not investing anything into it but they have to keep the web site going, and someone answering the e-mails.
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Old 04 March 2017, 00:38   #160
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this version doesnt work with aros because it paricularly checks agains library versions. your point.

edit: btw its a version uploaded a month ago. aminet doesnt contain any other version in between. would be really some effor to provide compatibility up to date to latest releases basically meant for os4.

edit2: it doesnt run on my os3.9 as well. it expects mathieeedoubtrans.library version 37, mine is 45.881 for some reason i dont recall. so it wouldnt work on an updated os no matter aros or genuine amiga os, except the library versions correspond exactly to the requirements the autor hard coded into that tool. not very futureproof software. i take my point back again.

Last edited by wawa; 04 March 2017 at 01:09.
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